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BB’s ex RB 3.2 Hot Rod


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On 03/11/2017 at 5:35 PM, Richard Bernau said:

I have a few thoughts (predictably!):

- it's not the bushings.  Its spring and damper rates plus suspension travel.  I would swap the 22mm front torsion bars for 21mm and either revalve the Bilsteins a little softer or get something more expensive from Tuthills.  Also raise the ride height a little all round as it is fairly low and big bumps can have the front suspension on the bump stops.  That is the crashing you get on bigger bumps.  I 100% would not put rubber bushings back in - but that is clearly not my call anymore!

- yes the geo is track focussed. Get it checked before radically altering.  You need the neg camber for handling but you can certainly add a degree of front toe in order to get straight line stability.  That alone will get rid of almost all the dartiness.  I think you will find its close to zero toe if not a fraction toe-out at the moment, so you have plenty of scope to dial out the dartiness.

- you wanted the 888 tyres :) - they are part of the problem unfortunately as they have very hard sidewalls.  Run a 50 series road tyre (like the Bridgestones) and much of what you are feeling is toned down a couple of notches.  888s are also stupidly noisy.

- you can fit any (normal) 2-in rear muffler.  The flange spacing on the headers is the same as an early 911, so all SSi compatible mufflers will work.  I would try a cheap mild steel Dansk 2-in 1-out as the mild steel are quieter and also cheaper.  You will need to either cut the rear bumper for the side exit/s or cut off the tail pipe and weld on a down turned pipe to hide behind the bumper.  I would do the later.  Paint it all in heat proof BBQ satin black paint.  You will suffer a few lost hp as the car is tuned for what it has now.  If you fancy spending loads, I have other ideas....

- You could try inserts in the tail pipes for volume control.  I have one from TThomas - lost the second when it came loose and blew out somewhere.  He can make you inserts.  They only take a little volume away though.  But they will be cheap and maybe worth a try.

- Try duct taping the holes up at the back of the roof.  The factory seal disintegrated some time ago and was removed.  Headlining will help a tad.  I would closed cell, sticky back foam it all first.  Personally I would use pale perforated vinyl for the headlining to lighten things a tad.  That's what I had until the glue melted in Slovenia and it fell off.  Maybe revert to a glass screen?

I can't recall the trimmers I used but it will come to me.  It was the Leigh-on-Sea guys.  I think VT recommended them IIRC.  It will come to me.

Thanks RB for your valuable input, as always.

- OK, I'll leave the bushings well alone then. :-)

- The car was tugging slightly to the left on the motorway (not detectable at lower speeds) so it needs checking anyway. I've asked for a degree of front toe-in to correct the dartiness.

- I'll take the car to my classic 911 specialist for torsion bar replacement and damper revalving, plus slight ride height increase. A half-inch should make a difference without compromising the beautifully hunckered down stance too much.

- I know the 888 well and have the same on my group-A roadgoing E30 M3. They are indeed laughably loud but I find the stiff sidewalls great, so long as the suspension and geo are sufficiently road-oriented. For the noise alone, I'll probably run Bridgestones most of the time and have the 888 put on for full on Alpine road trips. I'll need the superior grip to stay ahead of the Lamborghinis and McLarens that I tend to tour with. ^^

- I'm not going to rush into changing the silencer, because I really like what you've done for short periods. And also for gently burbling around.

- I'll tape the holes at the back of roof (hadn't noticed) and get a pale perforated vinyl roof lining fitted.

- I'd like to fit a std inertia reel belt for the driver, as the harness prevents leaning over when overtaking in France with a RHD car, and shoulder checking when exiting intersections. Did you happen to keep the stock inertia reel belts?

- I'm fixing the driver's Recaro on the floor to get more headroom (being the only driver, I don't need adjustment rails), plus of course the seat heating in the cushions, which will be trimmed in tartan.

Cheers,

911-2.JPG

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Are the seats Pole Positions? I have lap belts and the option of harnesses in mine. I had the belt buckles located on the rear tunnel with some properly thick steel brackets - previous owner had mounted them on the ali seat frames which was not the best. 

Agree with what has been said about rubber bushes - the front of mine has no rubber (or poly - tops are rose joined and inners are spherical) and rides compliantly - I have KW coilovers though. Mine is setup with a touch of toe in for fast road.

Is it worth changing one thing at once? I.e geo first before changing spring rates and damper valving? Especially if you're just trying to take the edge off a little...

 

Edited by reddevil
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Car looks good!

Plans all sound pretty sensible to me.  I don't have the belts.  You will need to plan out where/how to mount inertia reel belts because of the cage...

One more thought - lift the rear carpet and see what sound deadening there is.  You can add or even double up the closed cell foam for next to zero weight penalty as it weighs grams.  Every little helps and this costs almost nothing if you buy the sticky back sheets off ebay and cut with scissors.

Edited by Richard Bernau
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PS - now that you have moved the number plate (which looks 100% illegal for an '89 car in the UK!), you will be needing a centre cooler to fill the gap behind the lower grill ;) .  Which was the main reason I put the plate where it was.  Still, it does look good.

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Had the geometry done with toe-in increased from 1/3° to 1° and have driven 5 hours since.

What a transformation! The alarming B-road waywardness has gone and the car now feels surefooted and reassuring. It's a real joy when motoring along country roads. :-)

The car no longer pulls to one side on the motorway and directional stability at speed is much improved very good, making the car more restful on long journeys.

Oddly, the ride quality now subjectively feels totally acceptable, with decent compliance. Still a tad stiff for road use but not worth paying to modify.

I'm not sure about reducing engine noise yet, as it's really rather thrilling when I'm fully engaged in the driving process. :-)

I am however hunting annoying parasitic noises, like the passenger harness clonking and - I think - the rear screen brake light rattling around. 

Very happy about the geometry! :-)

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Had the Wevo G50 short shift fitted.

Initially it felt a bit notchy and stiff, as short shifts invariably do.

However after a bit of use I felt very happy indeed! :-)

The shifts are much shorter and more dynamic feeling. The relative vagueness has been replaced by an almost military-feeling precision. The shift feels nicely mechanical.

For a weapon of a 911, frankly it should be a no-brainer because the gearshift precision matches the steering and handling precision.

For a daily driver or tourer, it's not so clear cut. In laid-back touring, I think the std shift is probably more pleasant.

For my car, I'm very happy about the upgrade and see value for money despite the steep price.

 

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The wailing banshee R888's are fab for maximum attack (sharp steering + high dry grip) but wearing for touring (very noisy + restless).

Would like to keep the R888's for full-on driving tours (+ maybe the odd track day) and order something easier to live with for normal touring.

In my sizes (225/45-16 & 245/45-16), I can order either Toyo T1-R or Kumho Ecsta SPT KU31.

Anyone have experience with these tyres?

I'd like something that contrasts with the R888, so I guess my priorities are:
- low noise
- good ride 
- progressive breakaway
- decent wet grip

That said, I don't want the steering or handling to feel too mushy as this is a hot sports car (still, my 1050Kg weight should help tyres avoid feeling mushy).

Don't care about wear rate (I do few miles) or ultimate dry grip (these tyres will be for driving at 7/10's).

I am enjoying the Kumho SPT on my bone stock E30 M3 (with R888R on my balls-out group A modified E30 M3). Works very well.
For a stock IB 911, I'd go with the Kumho. But for my hot rod 911, the Toyo seems perhaps more sporting and thus more appropriate.

Thoughts?

Cheers,

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I am not sure if have the same size wheels as you (16x7" front, 9" rear). 

I swapped from Kuhmo K70a track tyres 225's and 245's to Bridgestone S02 205's and 225s for much the same motivation as yourself - the S02s seem unavailable in 245 these days.

Don't discount the S02s because of the size drop, in actual fact once they are mounted there is little actual or visual difference and for touring 7/10 they are perfect. My weight is probably within +50kgs of yours, handling and feel are still great, similar track focused suspension setup and geo to you.

Personally if I was going to have a set of dedicated track wheels + tyres these days I'd be going for non-e marked tyres such as the Michelin Pilot Sport R or something from the Yokohama range. You'll run rings around anything on road legal rubber.

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  • 8 months later...
  • 11 months later...

So fellas. I am Spartacus!

After looking at this car last year when Alex first put it up for sale, this time round I thought what the hell. Only live once. I'm the new owner of RB's old car.

Flew to Paris Saturday morning in sweltering heat, met Alex, test drive, concluded the deal and drove her back to Wales. Left home 6am, arrived back home at nearly 2am. Motorway in France perfect, here, closures, delays, jams. C'est la vie. 

What a machine! Still pinching myself as she sounds so damn good and goes round corners so damn well. As you know, I have to name my cars. It's a tradition. Pet name is Daisy Duke (🙄) but I like calling her ASBO. 

First impression is she's in a different performance and handling league from my stock IB's. Thanks Richard. Sounds incredible. Raw! That's probably the best word to describe her. It just wants to rev and it digs in in the corners. Richard tells me its the diff that makes it handle so well. Well it goes round corners well alright! lol 

First step is to get a full service done and some new tyres. Then I want to learn how to drive this machine. It's going to be a blast! 

 

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1 minute ago, Nige said:

Excellent work BB!  Glad it's back in fold.

Thanks Nige

1 minute ago, Dr Rock said:

Excellent! You can lead the way next year then :signs71: 

Or you could let RB show you how to drive it :P

Thanks Doc. I'm happy to hold you all up if you like mate 😂 I think RB showing me how to drive it would be an excellent idea 

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