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carreracat

Turbo Brake Upgrade

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I am looking for ideas on a brake upgrade for a 930.

 

The car currently has Porsche Big Reds under 18' wheels but as part of a long term project the car is going back to 16" Fuch and the Big Reds won't fit.

 

The question is, what will? Is it best to source some original 917 derived 930 brakes, use Boxster brakes or go with one of the bespoke options from Tuthills or RS911? Any other options?

 

The car will be used for fast road and max 2 track days a year.

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I am looking for ideas on a brake upgrade for a 930.

 

The car currently has Porsche Big Reds under 18' wheels but as part of a long term project the car is going back to 16" Fuch and the Big Reds won't fit.

 

The question is, what will? Is it best to source some original 917 derived 930 brakes, use Boxster brakes or go with one of the bespoke options from Tuthills or RS911? Any other options?

 

The car will be used for fast road and max 2 track days a year.

dont use boxster ,SVP have some nice AP kits that simply bolt on,Turbo upgrade is pain but they are good,Twin Spark also do a 917 replica kit

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why don't use boxster?

 

on my car (not he car i mention above) i have 996 brakes with 3.2 discs - is that no good also?

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why don't use boxster?

 

on my car (not he car i mention above) i have 996 brakes with 3.2 discs - is that no good also?

I have driven two cars with boxster conversions and both felt horrible and grabby but maybe it was the way they were set up,no idea on the 996 brakes RB or sombody else would know about them.I would buy the AP kit bolt them on and drive away

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How much for a set nick with pads and discs? Do they come in different colours? Might be interested in a few months, fit under 15's?

Cheers

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Any colour you like. Click the picture above for prices of the kits. Pads are sourced separately, usually around £200 for a full set. They fit under 15s

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but they ain`t AP are they :rolleyes:

but they do fit 15" wheels and it appears your AP kit won't - is that correct?

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How about these?

 

C12-orange-09-400.jpg

 

 

What a good price! Did I read Twinspark want something like £3.5K for their setup?

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what is the difference between the AP and the C12 Aluminium?

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what is the difference between the AP and the C12 Aluminium?

 

Not sure about the history behind the C12 company but here is a description from AP's website explaining a bit about themselves.

 

About AP Racing

For over 50 years, AP Racing has had one aim - to create winners on the race track.

The world of motorsport has changed out of all recognition since those early days and AP Racing have spearheaded every major development in brake and clutch technology.

 

From iron brakes to today's carbon/carbon. From large production based clutches to compact Ø97mm multi-disc units that transmit close to 1000 bhp. AP Racing shows the way.

 

In Grand Prix Racing our success started with the incredible Auto Unions and has continued uninterrupted ever since to the championship winning Williams, McLarens, Renaults, and Ferraris. At the end of the 2009 season AP Racing had notched up an incredible 648th GP wins for cars using its Brakes and/or Clutches and are confident of increasing this tally in 2010. The UK company has racked up that amazing tally in just 39 years. The very first car to win a grand prix with AP Racing's brakes was the Ferrari 312B driven by Mario Andretti in the South African GP at Kyalami back in March 1971. It was, remarkably, Andretti's first competitive outing for Ferrari. The technical comparisons between the brakes used for the landmark occasions make for interesting reading. Where the caliper weighed 3.6 kg in 1971, it tipped the scales in Bahrain at 1.6 kg. The disc itself weighed 4 kg in 1971 but now weighs just 1.75 kg!

 

AP Racing has an outstanding record in F1 - 660 Grand Prix wins starting at the Dutch GP in 1967 have been won with cars that used the British company's brakes, clutches, or both. Over that period, engine power outputs have nearly doubled but our clutches have reduced in size and weight by a remarkable 113mm and 3.3kg. With over 228 brake winners AP Racing shows the way.

 

Over the years this success has been repeated in all other types of Single Seaters including A1GP, Champ Cars, Indy Racing League, Indy Lights, F2, F3000, F3 etc.

 

In Touring Cars we continue to equip winners in the ever popular DTM, British Touring Car Championship, WTCC, and Australian V8 Supercar series.

 

In GT & Sports Cars we continue to equip winners from Corvette, Lola, Porsche, Bentley, MG Rover, Zytec.

 

Victory at Le Mans in 1999 was the first time a braking system had required no change of disc and pads during the 24 hour race.

 

In Rally we have equipped winners from Minis via Group 4 Escorts, Lotus Sunbeams, Group B Quattros, Metros, RS200s, to the Mitsubushis, Peugeots, Toyotas, Skodas, Hyundais of recent years. As well as supplying our range of historic calipers for older vehicles taking part in the increasingly popular historic championships, we supply the very latest systems for the current Group N and World Rally Cars of today. In other rally catagories such as Super 1600 we supply Citroen, Fiat, MG Rover, Peugeot & Renault.

 

AP Racing now equip vehicles in all divisions of American Stock Car Racing, from Nascar Sprint Cup, Busch GN, Busch North and Craftsman Trucks to the Late Model Racing Series of ASA, All Pro and Re/Max. AP Racing now provide the solution to all braking requirements from Superspeedways to Short tracks.

The past five seasons has seen AP Racing equipping many championship winning cars. Building on these successes, AP Racing continue to develop new caliper and rotor ranges for the extensive stock car market.

 

On Two Wheels and Three we have a long and successful record in Grand Prix racing winning many world championships. Currently we are supplying state of the art brakes to competitors in the world Superbike championship. Building on this success we now offer a range of uprated brakes as bolt-on replacement for OE Braking equipment.

 

And our Road Car business goes from strength to strength. We supply leading performance car manufacturers with brake and clutch components and produce a comprehensive range of bolt on replacement performance brake kits.

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Wow, I don't think C12 can claim that kind of history. but the C12 brakes were co-developed with Tuthill.

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No incorrect......:-)

Thanks. Would it be possible to expand on the info about this kit, either on here or your site?

Your website states: "Fits all air cooled 911`s with min 6 x 16 front wheels", so I'm sure you can appreciate my misunderstanding over 15s.

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I run 993C4 calipers up front, and the 930 front calipers on the rear and it works very VERY well. I do VMax runs up to around 190mph regularly with only 0.4 miles to stop (all on a private runway), and the brakes are simply awesome! I went this direction when i had the 16" stock Fuchs as they were as big as you could go and still fit behind the front wheel. The C4 fronts 'just' fit, and the brake pad size is only marginally smaller than a big red one.

 

You have to take the center sections out of the 930 fronts calipers and fit them into the rear brackets, basically so you have the larger front pistons assemblies in the rear, and they fit with the stock disks. Also the 993C4 fronts just need a simple mounting bracket which you can buy online, and also work with the stock 930 front disks.

 

I bought a set of rear big red calipers, and have been looking for a set of fronts as i now have Ruf 17" wheels, not because i need more stopping power, but just because i've always wanted to have a set of big reds fitted. I believe the rears have to have the lugs machined off and new mounting holes drilled and threaded to fit to a 930, my big red rears are still stock at the moment.

 

I could be interested in doing a deal, what you would get from me is a full set of stock 930 calipers (the front brackets and rear piston assemblies are in a box, nothing has been modified, you would simply need to dismantle the rear calipers and return the front and rears to normal if you ever wanted just stock 930 brakes), and you would get a set of 993C4 fronts with the mounting bracket that simply bolt up in the stock 930 fitment and the use the stock disk....

My front disks are nearly new, the rears are not, but they are in usable shape. I'm not sure whether you have different disks with the big reds? I haven't gone that far into the research....

 

Are yours true 993 turbo big reds? I know some people call the 964 turbo calipers 'big reds'

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Just to add to your confusion here is a brief summary of what I found while researching when choosing calipers for my project

 

Brembo, AP Racing, Alcon – the best of the best for competition spec. calipers, expensive, excellent quality, lightweight, widest choice of brake pads with certain calipers, make the best quality brake discs too

 

Endless – big Japanese drift following, too big for even 16” wheels

 

Twin Spark/Zuffenhausen – 930 internals in period looking caliper body, very expensive for the correct period look they offer, slightly lighter but not worth x2 the cost of AP or Alcon calipers or x1.5 the cost of 930 calipers

 

HiSpek – rubbish, poor service and build quality, wouldn’t stick them on my wheel barrow

 

Wilwood – very good value, large range of calipers and discs, mid-range quality and American made so most parts are made to imperial dimensions

 

C12/Tuthill/Early 911 – well made lighter alternative to standard 930 calipers, only 6-pot front caliper available that fits under a 15” wheel, good value

 

Porsche 930 – very good quality but heavy, big pad area, expensive compare to AP and Alcon

 

Porsche Boxter, 993, etc – expensive, heavy, very good quality, made by Brembo, good choice for mixing and matching, widest choice if not buying new

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I run 993C4 calipers up front, and the 930 front calipers on the rear and it works very VERY well. I do VMax runs up to around 190mph regularly with only 0.4 miles to stop (all on a private runway), and the brakes are simply awesome! I went this direction when i had the 16" stock Fuchs as they were as big as you could go and still fit behind the front wheel. The C4 fronts 'just' fit, and the brake pad size is only marginally smaller than a big red one.

 

You have to take the center sections out of the 930 fronts calipers and fit them into the rear brackets, basically so you have the larger front pistons assemblies in the rear, and they fit with the stock disks. Also the 993C4 fronts just need a simple mounting bracket which you can buy online, and also work with the stock 930 front disks.

 

I bought a set of rear big red calipers, and have been looking for a set of fronts as i now have Ruf 17" wheels, not because i need more stopping power, but just because i've always wanted to have a set of big reds fitted. I believe the rears have to have the lugs machined off and new mounting holes drilled and threaded to fit to a 930, my big red rears are still stock at the moment.

 

I could be interested in doing a deal, what you would get from me is a full set of stock 930 calipers (the front brackets and rear piston assemblies are in a box, nothing has been modified, you would simply need to dismantle the rear calipers and return the front and rears to normal if you ever wanted just stock 930 brakes), and you would get a set of 993C4 fronts with the mounting bracket that simply bolt up in the stock 930 fitment and the use the stock disk....

My front disks are nearly new, the rears are not, but they are in usable shape. I'm not sure whether you have different disks with the big reds? I haven't gone that far into the research....

 

Are yours true 993 turbo big reds? I know some people call the 964 turbo calipers 'big reds'

 

the car that i am enquiring about (not mien) has got big reds but they have already been promised to a new home i'm afraid.

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HiSpek – rubbish, poor service and build quality, wouldn’t stick them on my wheel barrow

dear lord dont you employ a gardener :morning: ,I thought Hi Spec made the tuts brakes ?

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As an aside they also make LMP1 brake pads that will do the whole 24 hours

I can make a set of Textars last years :P Stephen must have a pretty hot wheelbarrow, mine doesn't even have brakes.

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I can make a set of Textars last years :P Stephen must have a pretty hot wheelbarrow, mine doesn't even have brakes.

You're not far wrong, the nitros bottles on the back might be a step too far though :unsure:

post-3031-1315483960_thumb.jpg

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Just to add to your confusion here is a brief summary of what I found while researching when choosing calipers for my project

 

Brembo, AP Racing, Alcon – the best of the best for competition spec. calipers, expensive, excellent quality, lightweight, widest choice of brake pads with certain calipers, make the best quality brake discs too

 

Endless – big Japanese drift following, too big for even 16” wheels

 

Twin Spark/Zuffenhausen – 930 internals in period looking caliper body, very expensive for the correct period look they offer, slightly lighter but not worth x2 the cost of AP or Alcon calipers or x1.5 the cost of 930 calipers

 

HiSpek – rubbish, poor service and build quality, wouldn’t stick them on my wheel barrow

 

Wilwood – very good value, large range of calipers and discs, mid-range quality and American made so most parts are made to imperial dimensions

 

C12/Tuthill/Early 911 – well made lighter alternative to standard 930 calipers, only 6-pot front caliper available that fits under a 15” wheel, good value

 

Porsche 930 – very good quality but heavy, big pad area, expensive compare to AP and Alcon

 

Porsche Boxter, 993, etc – expensive, heavy, very good quality, made by Brembo, good choice for mixing and matching, widest choice if not buying new

 

Great stuff as usual!

 

Nick's C12 look like very good value and I guess it is already much better than the original 3.2 brakes.

 

Dom's AP are just incredible but must be for proper track boys!

 

thank you for your answer. :)

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the car that i am enquiring about (not mien) has got big reds but they have already been promised to a new home i'm afraid.

 

Thinking about it i'm being silly anyway, i only need a pair of front big reds to make a set, then i can sell my full set of 930's and sell the front 993 C4's to someone that wants to upgrade the 930 brakes like i did, whilst retaining the parts to put the 930's back at a later date.

 

I will say though that a set of 993 C4 calipers up front are bloody awesome, and are as tight a fit as i've ever seen behind 16" wheels, AND use stock disks.... Not sure what you would use on the back? Maybe if you can get a full set of C4 calipers and make the rears work? There must be salvage yards with 993 C4's in all over the world

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Thinking about it i'm being silly anyway, i only need a pair of front big reds to make a set, then i can sell my full set of 930's and sell the front 993 C4's to someone that wants to upgrade the 930 brakes like i did, whilst retaining the parts to put the 930's back at a later date.

 

I will say though that a set of 993 C4 calipers up front are bloody awesome, and are as tight a fit as i've ever seen behind 16" wheels, AND use stock disks.... Not sure what you would use on the back? Maybe if you can get a full set of C4 calipers and make the rears work? There must be salvage yards with 993 C4's in all over the world

 

Trying to be helpful here, the 993 C2 and C4 brakes are the same, so you have the whole 993 universe (non turbo, non RS) to find calipers from. The 993 rear caliper will fit over the 28mm thick 930 rear disc but needs little bits ground off the centres - same as Jev's 964 rear calipers over 930 discs. I think you also fill and re-drill the mounting holes as the bolt spacing is different IIRC.

 

I am not going to look up the bias numbers as this is getting away from the original topic, but lets just say that 993 calipers gets you a Porsche std bias for an ABS car, so you are in the right ballpark. We have also talked before about the bias with 993 front calipers and moving 930 fronts to the rear (ie JBL930 set-up) and its more rear biased than any Porsche std bias. That's not to say that it doesn't work, just that in extremis it probably isn't ideal.

 

My $0.02 - I like the C12 stuff, but its really a best fit for narrow body cars IMHO (because it uses small std rear discs). If you have 930 discs, then you might as well get calipers that are designed to fit over 930 discs (32mm fr and 28mm rear) and have a good close to std bias. By far the biggest contributor to how 930 brakes work and feel will be down to the choice of pads. Secondly, like any brakes, you need some cooling air if you are doing track stuff or repeated high speed stops. I don't want to sound like a broken record but for years I saw Ray Williams beat the living daylights out of his 930 as a full weight, full interior 400-600hp race car with the std 930 brakes. There is no way anyone is putting their car under more pressure than that, so unless you just want the look of something else or really want to save weight or its too expensive, then std 930 is a great set-up for 930s. Its plainly not the best set-up (look at 350mm or 380mm GT2 stuff) but its pretty good for 99% of people. If I didn't have 930 calipers then price would dictate that 993 calipers or AP Racing are probably a better bet.

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I'm not a spanner man, so only repeat what i am told by Porsche mechanics, and i was told (regardless of pad sizes), that the C4 caliper was different to the C2, did they just paint them different colours for fun? C2's are black and C4's silver..... Are they the same part number?

 

I can assure you that the bias works well stopping from around 190mph repetitively, not sure what else to add...... Maybe you have more experience with this set up than me?

Edited by jbl930

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