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fixing 6 point harnesses


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hmmmm some nice rules & regs to go through with regards to the blue book there ;)

 

any chance of a sentance to sum things up?!

 

as for the harness bar but roll cage it's interesting to note renault released the megane r26.r with 6 pont harnesses but no roll cage (it was an optional extra). like i said i'd rather not get into that debate but yeah, i don't plan on rolling the car!

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hmmmm some nice rules & regs to go through with regards to the blue book there ;)

 

any chance of a sentance to sum things up?!

 

as for the harness bar but roll cage it's interesting to note renault released the megane r26.r with 6 pont harnesses but no roll cage (it was an optional extra). like i said i'd rather not get into that debate but yeah, i don't plan on rolling the car!

 

Well, basically use the existing mounts for the floor mounts, as this is where the majority of the strain is taken, and keep the shoulder mounts as parallel as possible.

If you fit them to the rear shelf, make sure you strenghten the underside of the shelf

to accept the forces you may put on it.

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Exactly. Just don't use 3 or 4 point unless you have to, when you have seen someone 'submarine' out of these you wouldn't ever use them......

 

I just have a 4 point Scroth harness in my car at present (mounted to integral harness bar in SD cage) but have purchased the crotch straps.

 

Where is the best point to mount these too? I assume it can't be done without drilling the floor.

 

On the subject of front cage sections for road use (without a helmet) - I took mine out as it was perfectly positioned to whack my head on!

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Exactly. Just don't use 3 or 4 point unless you have to, when you have seen someone 'submarine' out of these you wouldn't ever use them......

 

I sold my 4 point harnesses for this reason. Even in normal use you'd find the buckle halfway up your chest. I also found that passengers tended not to tighten the harnesses up properly - so they were probably more dangerous that a normal inertia belt. Harnesses on the road are a PITA.

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I sold my 4 point harnesses for this reason. Even in normal use you'd find the buckle halfway up your chest. I also found that passengers tended not to tighten the harnesses up properly - so they were probably more dangerous that a normal inertia belt. Harnesses on the road are a PITA.

4 point harnesses are a fail. 5 point is the minimum or 6 point if your don't want to split your difference ;)

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For the first time, at Brands last week, i found myself wanting/needing some harnesses as i could physically feel myself moving bodily in my Recaro PP's...must mean the cars getting quicker in the corners and carrying more g's than before! I had previously felt quite restrained 'enough' with the high sided PP's and normal seat belts but can see the obvious benefit of being held more in place when cornering fast.

 

Will have to get myself a harness bar and harness at some point. When you guys dismiss 3 & 4 point harnesses, is that speed/car dependant? Surely its relative? Isnt a full 5 or 6 point harness a bit overkill for a normal IB on trackdays, especially if not fitted with a cage too?

 

As others mention, be nice to get a diagram of ideal mounting points/belt angles. I had intended to just use a harness bar, 4pt belts using rear seat belt mounts with the thought that even thats better restraint and safety than standard seat belts. If i had a car as quick as Teo's, RBs etc then i would want a cage and 5 or 6pt.

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For the first time, at Brands last week, i found myself wanting/needing some harnesses as i could physically feel myself moving bodily in my Recaro PP's...must mean the cars getting quicker in the corners and carrying more g's than before! I had previously felt quite restrained 'enough' with the high sided PP's and normal seat belts but can see the obvious benefit of being held more in place when cornering fast.

That means your seat is too big. IMO you should not be moving laterally in a properly fitting bucket seat like the Recaro. I'm guessing you're slightly built ? The Recaro Apex driver seat I have is narrower than the Pole Position. No way I'm moving around laterally in my seat.

Edited by GaryH
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When you guys dismiss 3 & 4 point harnesses, is that speed/car dependant? Surely its relative? Isnt a full 5 or 6 point harness a bit overkill for a normal IB on trackdays, especially if not fitted with a cage too?

Submarining alert !!!

 

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That means your seat is too big. I'm guessing you're slightly built ? The Recaro Apex driver seat I have is narrower than the Pole Position. No way I'm moving around laterally in my seat.

 

Heh, yes i havent got a fat butt to hold me in place...(un)fortunately :lol: I thought PP's were the narrower range of Recaro buckets? They were certainly snugger than others i tried at the autosport show last year and with a jacket on, my arms are squeezed into my body. Not sure i was moving much laterally but certainly displaced from the required driving position and hanging onto the steering wheel in some quick sloped corners !

 

Forgot about those CG locks, thanks, but not sure they are the answer.

 

edit: eek, that vid certainly highlights the submarining ! but then you would get that with a stock seat belt, so a 4pt will still hold you better for most circumstances (not a huge impact like that)

Edited by MarkJ
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Mark, I think you're missing the point here.

 

I wouldn't think what is the minimum I can get away with on track but whats the maximum I can fit and still keep my car sensible for road use. It has nothing to do with how fast your car is compared to others as they all stop at the same speed when they hit something but all about how safe you want to be.

 

If I were you I would firstly change your seat to something better fitting or eat more pies, fit a 6-point harness and a rear rollhoop with harness bar. For road use your factory belts (you don't even need to remove them for track use) and slacken off and strap up your harness seat belts.

 

I think I need a narrower seat as I'm squirming about a lot while reading what is being posted :lol:

Edited by World Citizen
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Heh, yes i havent got a fat butt to hold me in place...(un)fortunately :lol: I thought PP's were the narrower range of Recaro buckets? They were certainly snugger than others i tried at the autosport show last year and with a jacket on, my arms are squeezed into my body. Not sure i was moving much laterally but certainly displaced from the required driving position and hanging onto the steering wheel in some quick sloped corners !

Nope. The slimmest fitting Recaro seat is the Apex. The Pole Position/Furious is slim compared to other brands but still wider than the Apex. As Nige/Jevvy/Northy will no doubt soon point out (probably with pictures) I'm a skinny git so chose the Apex as my drivers seat. Fits my hips perfectly. With consideration for more 'normal'/lardy ;) sized passengers I chose a Furious for the pax seat.

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For the first time, at Brands last week, i found myself wanting/needing some harnesses as i could physically feel myself moving bodily in my Recaro PP's...must mean the cars getting quicker in the corners and carrying more g's than before! I had previously felt quite restrained 'enough' with the high sided PP's and normal seat belts but can see the obvious benefit of being held more in place when cornering fast.

 

Will have to get myself a harness bar and harness at some point. When you guys dismiss 3 & 4 point harnesses, is that speed/car dependant? Surely its relative? Isnt a full 5 or 6 point harness a bit overkill for a normal IB on trackdays, especially if not fitted with a cage too?

 

As others mention, be nice to get a diagram of ideal mounting points/belt angles. I had intended to just use a harness bar, 4pt belts using rear seat belt mounts with the thought that even thats better restraint and safety than standard seat belts. If i had a car as quick as Teo's, RBs etc then i would want a cage and 5 or 6pt.

 

Before you do anything else, try moving the seat a bit closer to the wheel and see if it helps. I don't think the PP is a bad fit for sensible size people and you can add padding to it pretty easily to make it snug. I am only 78kg and 5'9" and I fit fine and I didn't always have harnesses.

 

How are your std inertia reel belts routed? Are you going through the harness holes or over the sides of the seat? You shouldn't submarine with a 3 point lap+sash belt as there is nothing pulling the lap belts up. Gary makes the point well - just not worth even considering 3 or 4 pt harnesses. I cringe when I see some high end sports cars with 4 pt belts specced as OEM and being sold to the public with an implied fit for purpose warranty. Can anyone say "potential lawsuit"!

 

Your next logical step is the BK type harness bar and harnesses if you still feel like you are moving around too much. Its probably not ideal in a rollover, but then a cage (half or full) is not ideal for road driving without a helmet - even with all the padding. A lot of absolute statements have been made about this or that but any setup is really a compromise. Some better than others but ultimately you make up your mind as to what are the risks you really feel you need to protect against. The best safety for road and track driving demand different solutions, so you have to compromise somewhere.

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.. and in answer to how it should be done, I am going to hold up the obvious example of a GT3 Cup Car. Shorts runs of harness, horizontal from the cage harness bar to the seat slot. Same on the sides with short harness runs and not too much or too little angle. Assumption is its a 6 point harness. I have also seen Cup Cars with longer harness runs back to an additional horizontal bar off the rear of the 2 diagonals - in fact, I am pretty sure the GT3 Hybrid runs like that.

 

post-3-1323866751_thumb.jpg

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Yes my seat belt goes over the side of the PP which doesnt help. That looks pretty neat with the GT2RS solution. A bendy receiver arm would do the trick, if we could fit the receiver through the side slot...not tried.

 

Those CG Locks actually look quite impressive in the vids and testimonials on their site. Anyone off here used them? Though again, not sure if it would work so well without the belt passing through the side slots. Could be a good interim solution before 5pt belts and harness bar. I would have to keep stock belts even with a harness as car is used so often but does seem wise to get them at some point for all the track days i do.

 

I could have sworn i tried an Apex seat and found it wider than the PP :unsure: Im only 5'10 and lightweight 70kg! (all part of my track training and l/w church praying :whistling: ) I dont think i would want any narrower, i already feel squeezed enough at upper body in the PP's. Anyway, off topic.

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I could have sworn i tried an Apex seat and found it wider than the PP :unsure:

Definately not.

 

Recaro Furious/Pole Position dimensions

 

seat-dimensions-recaro.jpg

 

A= 57cm / B= 43cm / C= 84cm / D= 80.5cm

 

Recaro Apex dimensions

 

seat-dimensions-recaro.jpg

 

A= 59cm / B= 39.5cm / C= 81cm / D= 79cm

Edited by GaryH
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.. and in answer to how it should be done, I am going to hold up the obvious example of a GT3 Cup Car. Shorts runs of harness, horizontal from the cage harness bar to the seat slot. Same on the sides with short harness runs and not too much or too little angle. Assumption is its a 6 point harness. I have also seen Cup Cars with longer harness runs back to an additional horizontal bar off the rear of the 2 diagonals - in fact, I am pretty sure the GT3 Hybrid runs like that.

 

post-3-1323866751_thumb.jpg

 

looking at that (great) pic, could you not fit a harness bar and then literally run shortened straps back to it from your harness (ie exactly as the photo) rather than over the harness bar and down to the stock rear belt mounts? Im assuming the harness bar and existing pillar mounts are strong enough to deal with the loads.

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