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jevvy

The 3.6 Engine Conversion Banter Thread

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I thought that we could maybe do with one of these? I doubt it will ever be a "How To" thread but at least we can thrash out some details and misconceptions about doing the conversion without cluttering up other threads. Obviously the details below is a bit of a first stab, I'm sure others will correct me so I'll update it as and when.

 

I guess most people consider this route because they either want more grunt or are facing a 3.0/3.2 rebuild. I was in the latter group and decided I could probably manage a DIY 3.6 conversion much cheaper than a pro 3.2 rebuild - didn’t fancy a DIY rebuild back then.

 

So what’s needed?

1. engine

2. conversion parts

3. conversion process

 

In(a bit) more detail…

1. engine

The engine is the tricky bit - buy one with the right story and you are onto a winner - buy one that needs a rebuild and you are back at square 1 but rebuilding a 280bhp motor instead of a 200-230 bhp one so not the end of the world.

 

2. conversion parts

I won’t go into massive detail here - most of this info is available elsewhere. However assuming you have bought a full engine with loom and ECU, you will then need:

 

Core stuff:

Clutch/flywheel (depends on engine/gearbox)

Oil lines (same as SSI + 1 extra pipe)

Fuel lines

Wiring harness adapter/DYI conversion

Exhaust (depends on engine/requirements)

 

Other stuff:

Oil filter(s)

Fuel Filter

Spacers (depends on which 3.6 lump you get)

Air filer (probably a cone as the 3.6 airbox doesn’t fit easily with IB hinges)

Tin mods

 

Optional stuff:

993/964 throttle cable (saves on lever modifications)

Single top pulley conversion(means the alt light comes on if you lose cooling)

Remap - mine went form 272 to 296 with a trip to see Mr Scofield(£350)

More oil cooling (especially for 3.0 chassis)

 

3. conversion process

Again top level detail to keep things simple for now:

Pull old engine

Pull old loom and ECU

Fit new oil lines, fuel lines to chassis

Fit new loom and ECU and hook up to chassis loom(DIY or adapter)

Strip new engine of power steering and other parasitic crap

Modify rear engine mount (bend it a bit)

Fit new and optional parts to new engine/chassis(clutch/flywheel/tin mods/pulley/throttle cable etc)

Bolt engine and gearbox together

Fit new engine

Hook everything up(oil, fuel and water)

Fire it up

Go for a drive

 

Costs:

Conversion costs vary greatly due to the various options/variations involved. DIY is obviously the cheapest and it really is pretty easy so anyone with some spanner skills should manage it.

 

I see the rough DIY numbers a little bit like this:

3000 - Engine

800 - conversion parts

500 - exhaust

500 - bits and bobs

4800 - TOTAL

 

Now the good bit - assuming you sell your engine for 2500 which is pretty achievable assuming it’s not junk then...

 

4800 - cost (as above)

-2500 - old engine sale

=2300 - overall cost

 

Now the less than good bit...

Buy a duff engine you are back into rebuild money and mentioned above.

Paying someone else to do it can get expensive if you let them deal with all the variations/options and issues. However if you spend the time collecting the parts and deliver them to a specialist to put together I'm sure it could be done in record time.

 

What about compared to a (standard or hot) rebuild?

Costs for rebuilds also vary greatly, I’m sure there is a thread on this somewhere. A lot of the variance in this is down to various stuff that just needs replacing as part of the rebuild – some of it is directly related to the rebuild but also some of it is related to stuff you would be doing as part of a conversion(knacked oil lines, knacked exhaust, knacked clutch, knacked engine tin etc etc). So comparing a non-refreshing 3.2 rebuild(ie engine only) v’s a 3.6 conversion it can look a little expensive but if you assume you would be doing most of the bits of a 3.6 conversion during a thorough 3.0/3.2 rebuild then the numbers really start to stack in favour of the 3.6 route(even if you have to rebuild it).

 

So in summary:

Buy the right engine

Do your research

You won’t regret it :)

 

And a little for the haters… :)

Basically its the revvyness shizzle that brings the hate. I’m yet to receive a practical/tangible challenge on the lack of “revvyness” of the 3.6 lump – as I understand it even a standard 3.6 lump in an IB will generally beat most 3.0/3.2, in any test chosen and that includes stationary blips to the redline and maccy dees 

 

Extra ideas/thoughts/comments:

"when fitting a 3.6ltr to a G50 box is to chop 28mm off the bell housing, shorten the input shaft accordingly to move the whole engine forward." - this may well save you a bend of the rear engine mount.

"Oil catch can (to work with vacuum if keeping the original induction system)."

"Bottom single pulley, only on a 993 engine as 964 engine has a harmonic damper built into the bottom pulley (cleans up appearance, reduces rotating mass and gives you the option of using the earlier engine hanger)."

 

List of IB conversions:

Martin G

Jevvy

Tim

Kroggers

Tripe(where has he gone?)

AlexP

Brummie

any more?

Edited by jevvy

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Thanks for posting this Jev. I definitely see this in my future now. After the garden shed is finished and the bodywork sorted.

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:signs118:

 

Zingy or not zingy, its a very good conversion (even when experience from the passenger seat when its raining):twocents:

 

One extra modification that I think would be the icing on the cake when fitting a 3.6ltr to a G50 box is to chop 28mm off the bell housing, shorten the input shaft accordingly to move the whole engine forward.

 

When you move a lot a little it can have a big improvement on the cars handling, your car will love you for it

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Who cares about zinginess when you have strapped an extra 100 horses to your rear end and forward vision becomes like lightspeed from the cockpit of the Millenium Falcon :yahoo:

 

Definitely something I want to do. I imaging there are other plus points like better reliability (presuming you have set it up right) and better fuel economy. Downside - more on the insurance?

 

Now where do I get £2500 from :unsure:

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Good thread and good intro write up Jev :signs118:

 

A big part of me prefers the idea of keeping it original-ish with a well sorted rebuilt 3.2, maybe increased out to 3.4, but must admit I've had a strong hankering for a 3.6 lump in one of these nicely light IBs since (a) owning a 964 before and (b) having a ride in jevs car!

 

Alas I havent got the required spanner skills nor a spare 5k for either at the moment, though it is something I want to get done in the not too distant future. Extra horses are always welcome :cool: as soon as this damn recession finally bows out I'm going for it!

 

You forgot to add your own estimate cost for fitting a 3.6 for us Jev ;)

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Great stuff but I think if you are converting an SC you'd also have to budget for some better stoppers.

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Good to put everything in one thread Jev :signs118:

 

Re...

Other stuff:

Oil filter(s)

Fuel Filter

Spacers (depends on which 3.6 lump you get)

Air filer (probably a cone as the 3.6 airbox doesn’t fit easily with IB hinges)

Tin mods

Should add "Additional oil cooling" as there is no on-engine oil cooler on a 3.6 like the earlier engines. This will also add at least another £250 or so to the cost.

 

Don't know about expanding the thread to even later engines though :rolleyes:

Hook everything up(oil, fuel and water)

 

Mark

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Bostin' thread Jev :signs118:

 

Personally I'd like to keep the original engine *and* have a 3.6 but hey :stupid:

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Should add "Additional oil cooling" as there is no on-engine oil cooler on a 3.6 like the earlier engines. This will also add at least another £250 or so to the cost.

 

Good shout although I've managed with an optimised carrera cooler so far.

 

 

Don't know about expanding the thread to even later engines though :rolleyes:

 

That was just to see if anyone was still awake :)

 

Although that said I do fancy putting a 3.6 into a 996 :)

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You forgot to add your own estimate cost for fitting a 3.6 for us Jev ;)

 

Thats just not gona happen these days - I cant even find time to finish my own jobs :(

 

 

Alas I havent got the required spanner skills...

 

Dude I didnt when I started mine back in 2005, was my first big spanner mission really and it was pre-IB:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911...e-one-pics.html "We lifted the engine into the back of my golf GTI " - wish I'd got a pic of that - lightest steering ever!

 

 

Thanks guys- I've added the extra bits suggested to the original post - keep them coming.

 

What about a list of conversion threads?

Edited by jevvy

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:signs118:

One extra modification that I think would be the icing on the cake when fitting a 3.6ltr to a G50 box is to chop 28mm off the bell housing, shorten the input shaft accordingly to move the whole engine forward.

 

When you move a lot a little it can have a big improvement on the cars handling, your car will love you for it

 

Any links to threads with pics detailling this - won't the mounts all then need altering?

 

I agree link to all the threads on the 3.6 conversion would be really useful

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Well done for taking the time to write this lot up Jev,

 

It's something I fancy doing in the future.

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Any links to threads with pics detailling this - won't the mounts all then need altering?

 

No mate, the 3.6 engine mount needs bending forwards at the tips to fit an IB chassis so if you gain this space by machining gearbox stuff then no need to bend the mount. Its similar to what brummie did to fit the slightly longer 6 speed in his car.

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Good thread and good intro write up Jev :signs118:

 

A big part of me prefers the idea of keeping it original-ish with a well sorted rebuilt 3.2, maybe increased out to 3.4

 

It was one of those which made my mind up for me.

 

I had a go in a freshly built 3.4, the thing was a ten grand job and it did not feel ten grand faster than a 3.2.

 

As you know, I am almost PCGB obsessive about originality. :whistling:

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For the past few weeks I've been meaning to book in for a top end rebuild, but things like this keep putting it off.

 

3.6

 

I presume you could get cheaper but seems a low risk option.

 

Rich

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Jevvy, thanks for this and the cost benefit analysis. I will try it as women's logic on the wife and say I'll save thousands on a normal rebuild and with the money I save buy handbag and shoes to match :whistling:

 

Soo tempting.

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This is a great post from Jev :signs118:

 

Without wanting to throw cold water on the 3.6 swap thing - and its clear that I decided a rebuild was what worked for me rather than a swap - there is one thing I just can't get my head around. How does a "good" 3.6 cost £3k and and "tired" 3.2 sell for £2.5k? Doesn't add up. I think it might be possible to do a swap for Jev money if you make doing it cheaply (scouring ebay and bargaining hard for months and doing every bit of the swap yourself) your life's mission. Otherwise, I think the true cost is probably c£2k higher, at which point you have basically paid for a full shop rebuild and never got your hands dirty. I also think you (not Jev - just a non-specific "you") are dreaming if you think your average 100k mile 3.6 is somehow in materilly better condition than your average 100k mile 3.2.

 

No arguments about the benefits though.

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...there is one thing I just can't get my head around. How does a "good" 3.6 cost £3k and and "tired" 3.2 sell for £2.5k? .

 

I suppose the point is if you have a 150k 3.2 then an 80k 3.6 at similar money is a good proposition compared to a rebuild. Buying a 150k 3.6 to replace an 80k 3.2 probably doesn't make sense.

 

...are dreaming if you think your average 100k mile 3.6 is somehow in materilly better condition than your average 100k mile 3.2.

 

Agree but with most of the conversion costs also typically happening during a rebuild anyway, starting with a 3.6 core that costs the same to rebuild as a 3.2 lump really starts to make sense.

 

There are 2 clear routes for me these days:

1. buy a good engine with good miles and a good story then fit it and use it

2. buy an unknown engine for less ££ and get it rebuilt and fitted

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there is one thing I just can't get my head around. How does a "good" 3.6 cost £3k and and "tired" 3.2 sell for £2.5k? Doesn't add up. I think it might be possible to do a swap for Jev money if you make doing it cheaply (scouring ebay and bargaining hard for months and doing every bit of the swap yourself) your life's mission. Otherwise, I think the true cost is probably c£2k higher, at which point you have basically paid for a full shop rebuild and never got your hands dirty. I also think you (not Jev - just a non-specific "you") are dreaming if you think your average 100k mile 3.6 is somehow in materilly better condition than your average 100k mile 3.2.

This ^^^^^ :twocents:

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I suppose the point is if you have a 150k 3.2 then an 80k 3.6 at similar money is a good proposition compared to a rebuild. Buying a 150k 3.6 to replace an 80k 3.2 probably doesn't make sense.

 

I agree with this - just think you are optimistic about your costs - what is a 150k mile 3.2 really worth and how easy is it to find a good 3.6 for £3k? Its probably possible to do on your costing, just really bargain crunchingly difficult IMHO.

 

Edit - the linked ebay add at £4.7k for a non-vario, non-plastic intake 3.6 with ~90k miles. Just an example.

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List of IB conversions:

Martin G

Jevvy

Tim

Tripe(where has he gone?)

AlexP

Brummie

any more?

 

Nice one Jev, don't forget about Kroggers though!

 

The key really is finding the right engine, I didn't, others have - you just gotta roll the dice sometimes. The little extra bits that you will invariably need can also add up pretty quick but doing the engine swap really isn't that hard & can be a very rewarding job.

 

What you end up with is a very different animal and I can see more and more people doing the 3.6 thing especially if it comes to rebuild time on 3.2 & SC motors...... in fact I know of at least a couple of lurkers out there who are in the process right now or have the parts just sat there waiting - c'mon, come out of the 3.6 closet!!

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I agree with this - just think you are optimistic about your costs - what is a 150k mile 3.2 really worth and how easy is it to find a good 3.6 for £3k? Its probably possible to do on your costing, just really bargain crunchingly difficult IMHO.

80k lump that didnt sell at 3k

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PORSCHE-993-3-6-...2#ht_500wt_1182

 

Edit - the linked ebay add at £4.7k for a non-vario, non-plastic intake 3.6 with ~90k miles. Just an example.

Yeah that wouldnt be top of my engine buy list

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