Anti-roll bar & Damper Options

[Northy]

I don't like body roll.

 

I've already updated my SC to use late carrera ARBs, but since changing my shocks from Konis to Bilsteins I've noticed more body roll. The old Konis were adjustable and set on hard.

 

So, I can drill the rear bar and move the drop link mount forward to increase stiffness, but other than that, what options are there?

 

Anyone used Smart Racing, Elephant Racing, Weltmiester?

 

For the front, is it through the body only? Is this a DIYable job?

 

What have the rest of you got?

[longman]

I don't like body roll.

 

I've already updated my SC to use late carrera ARBs, but since changing my shocks from Konis to Bilsteins I've noticed more body roll. The old Konis were adjustable and set on hard.

 

So, I can drill the rear bar and move the drop link mount forward to increase stiffness, but other than that, what options are there?

 

Anyone used Smart Racing, Elephant Racing, Weltmiester?

 

For the front, is it through the body only? Is this a DIYable job?

 

What have the rest of you got?

Hmm , I'm suffering with lack of knowledge re bouncy bits on mine , seems too much roll to me and too much damper..

Definitely not enough compliance on normal roads for me so prob too low and hard.

I was talking to Tankman a ways back about roll , iirc the consensus was if you have more roll/compliance re the gen setup the car is more benign , smaller tolerances re roll = a much harder set up.

A general damper/ torsion/ anti rol bar set up for road and track cars would be a good place to start..

[topcarrera]

I fitted Smart ARB set up F&R over 5 years ago - absolute game changer. Dial out the understeer and move the game on!

[Richard Bernau]

Anyone used Smart Racing, Elephant Racing, Weltmiester?

 

They all do the same thing but some come with expensive, shiney and/or bright coloured bits. You can argue about fractionally improved kinematics etc but they really all do much the same thing. So choice is mostly down to budget and how Gollum-like you are about shiney things.

 

I have the late 3.2 22mm front bar and a Weltmeister 22mm rear bar. The WM bar has been on my car for about 10 years and works just fine. Its set in the stiffest part of the adjustment range.

[Northy]

I fitted Smart ARB set up F&R over 5 years ago - absolute game changer. Dial out the understeer and move the game on!

 

I think I remember you doing that. I don't think Smart Racing are going any more are they? Something to do with Flying Lizard now?

 

RB - what's the body roll like on yours? and which shocks are you using? Do you think slotting/drilling a standard bar would bring it closer to what you've got with yours?

 

I've got green billies all round and think I'd like to try the stiffer rear ones.

[oliverjamesthomas]

Which green Billies have you got chap? Are they the Sport or the Clubsport spec?

[Richard Bernau]

I think I remember you doing that. I don't think Smart Racing are going any more are they? Something to do with Flying Lizard now?

 

RB - what's the body roll like on yours? and which shocks are you using? Do you think slotting/drilling a standard bar would bring it closer to what you've got with yours?

 

I've got green billies all round and think I'd like to try the stiffer rear ones.

 

I am 22/29 hollow bars, custom billies and the body roll is not too bad even with the extra leverage of the wider track.

 

This is Cadwell and its looks worse than it feels. This is absolutely max body roll -

 

 

For a real race car, I would go stiffer on the rear t-bars and stiffer ARBs all round, but there has to be a compromise for a dual use car and I think this is a pretty good one. TC's car is very similar set-up and is also often praised. I would call this the template for IB road/track set-up at the stiffer end of the spectrum.

[Northy]

Which green Billies have you got chap? Are they the Sport or the Clubsport spec?

 

I think they are just the sport ones. They were cheap (when will I learn to just spend more for what I want...!)

 

I am 22/29 hollow bars, custom billies and the body roll is not too bad even with the extra leverage of the wider track.

 

This is Cadwell and its looks worse than it feels. This is absolutely max body roll -

 

For a real race car, I would go stiffer on the rear t-bars and stiffer ARBs all round, but there has to be a compromise for a dual use car and I think this is a pretty good one. TC's car is very similar set-up and is also often praised. I would call this the template for IB road/track set-up at the stiffer end of the spectrum.

 

It was the photos from Cadwell that made me realise how much body roll I've got going on.

 

Comparing mine with yours though, it looks fairly similar.

 

 

I was doing the track day in a normal sport seat and not my normal shell seat, so I was probably sliding around a bit more too.

 

I don't have a problem with it on roads, but I'd like the option of tightening it up for track days. Maybe I'll start with an adjustable rear bar first. To get anything stiffer up front means cutting holes in the bodywork. TC, is the smart rear bar much stiffer than the normal one?

[SP72]

I was doing the track day in a normal sport seat and not my normal shell seat, so I was probably sliding around a bit more too.

What you need is a set of Recaro buckets

 

I went +1mm to 23ff/22rr on mine - ideal for me as standard compliance with boges in a straight line with added anti-roll when it gets interesting, as of course it does on the north circular..... Lots

 

DPmotorsport have them as a set 24/22 ff/Rr underbody for 500euros with bushes - minor adjustments on the rear only however so Tarret or similar may work better for you?

 

May want to think about wevo Rear arb mounts too?

Edited November 29, 2012 by SP72

[Richard Bernau]

Comparing mine with yours though, it looks fairly similar.

 

Kind of - look at the off camber surface mine is on though. If photobucket was working, I would put up better pics...

 

Edit - here we go. In these, Hamish has thrown the car into the turn fairly hard with excess lock trusting that the compression will catch the car.

 

[MarkJ]

you seem to have a lot more roll than mine at the same corner Lewis (not sure if my 15's had anything to do with that? less tyre roll?) have you checked your rear ARB mounts? I had to get new ones re-welded to the car about a year or so ago as old ones were detaching themself from the car!

Edited November 29, 2012 by MarkJ

[Northy]

What shocks are you running Mark?

[SilverWT]

you seem to have a lot more roll than mine at the same corner Lewis

Lewis,

 

For what it is worth, I entered that corner directly behind MarkJ (you can see the nose of my car on the right) and it looks like my body roll was the same. In the comparison below your car did have more body roll, but don't know if there was any speed difference to influence the roll.

My set up is

Front TB STD 18.8mm and ARB later 22mm

Rear TB 26mm from a Turbo and ARB later 21mm

Sports Billies all round

When last weighed 1,050kg

 

Mark

[MrPerkles]

gold ones with red anodised bits are the best ,fit them

[Northy]

For what it is worth, I entered that corner directly behind MarkJ (you can see the nose of my car on the right) and it looks like my body roll was the same. In the comparison below your car did have more body roll, but don't know if there was any speed difference to influence the roll.

 

My set up is

Front TB STD 18.8mm and ARB later 22mm

Rear TB 26mm from a Turbo and ARB later 21mm

Sports Billies all round

When last weighed 1,050kg

 

Mark

 

That's a really interesting comparison, thanks for that.

 

I have the same suspension setup on mine and my car weighs about the same as yours, give or take a few kilos. So the only explanation can be that Mark J was holding you up

 

I'll check all the mounts on the rear, but they were fine a few months back. I'm going to try drilling another position into the rear ARB and see what that does - the worst that can happen is I bugger it up and have to use the original position or replace it with a shiny new aftermarket one.

[Richard Bernau]

I'm going to try drilling another position into the rear ARB and see what that does - the worst that can happen is I bugger it up and have to use the original position or replace it with a shiny new aftermarket one.

 

It won't do much as it only changes leverage by a fairly small amount whereas a diameter increase is an exponential change. Certainly no harm in trying though.

[MarkJ]

That's a great comparison pic silver

 

I have bilstein HD fronts, Boge rears (sadly! Still haven't got round to putting some billies on the rear), plus the arb bushes were all replaced with superpros as the old rubber ones were squidy marshmallows - so check them on your car too. Other than that, my arbs and torsion bars are stock for an '86 ib. Car weighed about 1090ish kg at cadwell (now 1072).

 

Speed differential could be a factor in the pics as we had a flipping Ute in front of us that kept flying off on the straights then cornering like a grandpa! But expect most of us were similar speed turning into that particular corner or you would have been scared of the apex

 

Think my TB's are 18.8f, 25mm rear. ARB 22f, 21mm rear ?

 

I put an rs rear arb on my 964 and that made a nice difference to the butt dyno at least, so interesting to see what option you go for and what you think of it.

Edited November 29, 2012 by MarkJ

[Northy]

I have bilstein HD fronts, Boge rears (sadly! Still haven't got round to putting some billies on the rear), plus the arb bushes were all replaced with superpros as the old rubber ones were squidy marshmallows - so check them on your car too. Other than that, my arbs and torsion bars are stock for an '86 ib. Car weighed about 1090ish kg at cadwell (now 1072).

 

That's interesting though, your car should have more body roll than mine on that setup. Mine is lighter, on stiffer TBs and stiffer rear shocks. Ride heights are probably comparable too. Maybe it's just my hefty frame rolling around inside!

[topcarrera]

Lewis,

 

My car runs 22/29 Tbars (Sander Hollow items), Billie Clubsport spec dampers and Smart Racing adjustable arbs - 23mm diameter bars. There's quite a bit of adjustment possible. I can still get car to roll quite a bit but obviously at noticeably greater cornering speeds. The beauty of the adjustable bars is that you can "dial in/out" a desired level of oversteer/understeer. With my 23mm bars front is set to softest setting and rear more towards harder setting. As well as massive elimination of roll the car is such more neutral, i.e. less understeer - more pointy and a tad more twitch at the limit but overall so much quicker. Have a drive of mine next time I'm on track ............

[MarkJ]

How quick and easy is it to adjust the 'adjustable' ARBs? Is it a simple turn screw type adjuster? Never seen one up close. I like the idea of a one click adjustment to dial in more or less oversteer.

[Northy]

How quick and easy is it to adjust the 'adjustable' ARBs? Is it a simple turn screw type adjuster? Never seen one up close. I like the idea of a one click adjustment to dial in more or less oversteer.

 

The rears are normally drilled in 3 or 4 positions and you unbolt the drop link and move it a position, or they are slotted and you undo the bolt, slide it up or down the slot and nip it back up. The fronts are typically the through the body style with drop links, like on an early car. The adjustment is normally done by moving the top mount of the drop link forwards and backwards along the anti-roll bar.

[Northy]

Yowser! $900 an end! Surely if you're thinking of spending nearly £2K on suspension, proper modern shocks are the way to go?

[Nick Moss]

Aren't there dampers available these days that are adjustable through an app? Imagine standing beside the track and adjusting someone else's car as they drive by

[MarkJ]

Lovely as they are, ain't no way i'd spend 900 dollars each end on a pair of adjustable sway bars!

That's race car budget stuff. Is there a more sensibly priced option?!

[jevvy]

Must be cheap bits out there to make one of these - doesnt look that complicated