buchanan3L2 Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 There's been much talk about the ethanol content going up to 10% and in time, even higher. The corrosive effect on the pipes and seals of early cars, not designed for it are well known. I know that petrol stations are required to display on the pump where ethanol is over 5% but this could become an increasingly problem. Does anyone have any experience of the additives beginning to appear on the market to protect against the effects? Has Porsche Classic made any recommendations that anyone knows about? I've looked but can't find anything. Any other thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SP72 Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 I use Miller VSPe for ethanol protection and a mild octane boost, which my 3.4 seems to like - 12 bottle bought in bulk from amazon or ebay, fair bit cheaper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingnonut Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Opie Oils has Millers EPS for £4.99 a bottle at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ab54666 Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Did you mean VSPe SP? If so isn't that for leaded cars? EPS as above I believe is the ethanol protector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SP72 Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Did you mean VSPe SP? If so isn't that for leaded cars? EPS as above I believe is the ethanol protector.yip, this stuff http://www.millersoils.co.uk/automotive/tds-automotive.asp?prodsegmentID=911§or=Classics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buchanan3L2 Posted May 15, 2015 Author Share Posted May 15, 2015 Very grateful for the responses ....... VSPe looks to be the way to go because it has the valve protection I need, as well as the octane boost and ethanol protection. (My understanding is that the 84my is the only year the 3.2 didn't have hardened valve seats. I've been using Castrol Valve Mater plus which appears to have work well because with 104k it still doesn't need a top end overhaul, but provide doesn't the ethanol protection) Again, many thanks for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buchanan3L2 Posted May 15, 2015 Author Share Posted May 15, 2015 After last post I went on to Amazon and discovered that the 500ml bottles are far better value than the 250ml. The 500ml bottle costs £26 or thereabouts and treats 500L of fuel where as the 250ml bottle costs £9 only treats 40L of fuel ........ no brainer me thinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nige Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Very grateful for the responses ....... VSPe looks to be the way to go because it has the valve protection I need, as well as the octane boost and ethanol protection. (My understanding is that the 84my is the only year the 3.2 didn't have hardened valve seats. I've been using Castrol Valve Mater plus which appears to have work well because with 104k it still doesn't need a top end overhaul, but provide doesn't the ethanol protection) Again, many thanks for the info. I would expect every 911 will have hardened valve seats else those valves are going to chomp through the ali. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buchanan3L2 Posted May 15, 2015 Author Share Posted May 15, 2015 Hi Nige Sorry, but I believe you are wrong. The '84 model year 3.2 didn't have the hardened valve seats. It is one of those strange quirks and I suspect a hangover from the leaded fuel days (pre universal use of cat convertors). Without lead in the fuel the valve "hammers" the surface of the steel valve seat and the valve clearance slowly reduces until it doesn't seat properly and compression is lost. The valve seat surface simply becomes "mis-shapen"/"indented" but it doesn't affect the head itself. '85my 3.2 engines onwards are OK. Can't remember for sure where I first discovered this but I think it was during a discussion with one of the technicians at Porsche Classic (Werks 2) back in 2003. Right or wrong, I've always assumed it is correct, used a valve seat additive, and the old motor is holding up well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Rock Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Even VW's had hardened valve seats from '68 onwards due to California going lead free, so I'm struggling to see how a 1 year only 911 in the mid '80's didn't have them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuchs915 Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 I thought the same Doc. As a side note, if you add a lead replacement to an engine with hardened seats, does it have any consequences or simply unnecessary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SP72 Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 What does the sticker on the fuel cap say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buchanan3L2 Posted May 15, 2015 Author Share Posted May 15, 2015 Dr Rock I know it seems implausible but bear in mind that the European and ROW engines in ’84my (type 930/20) were different the US/Canada/Japanese market engine (930/21) in many ways. The most obvious; 930/21 engines had a much lower CR, Lambda sensor and three way Cat as well as a different ECU. They were designed from the beginning for lead-free fuel whereas the Euro 930/20 engine were not. Porsche offered a Cat as an option (in Germany, at least) for the 85my but I gather, not unsurprisingly, it was not taken up by many and it was a couple of years after before it became a standard fitment on Euro cars. My understanding is that all the Euro engines prior to the 3.2 ie the Euro SC engines were similarly not fitted with hardened valve seats. Cars that started life on leaded petrol have a “lead memory” that can last for 20,000 miles or more before valve seat recession has any effect and so this whole subject “slipped below the radar” so to speak until LRP petrol disappeared. I’ve been trying to find something in writing about this to support my ageing memory and the only thing I have found, so far, is an article in “Thoroughbred and Classic Cars” dated May 1998 in which the listing for Porsche is as follows: PORSCHE index Note: Non-catalyst models only listed. 356, 912, 914/6, 914/4 with engine types W or AN, 911 all models to 1984 and all 911 SC, 924 pre-1979 and Turbo and Carrera GT: Fit higher specification valve seats and valves, and new guides. 924 1980 on, 928/928S 1980-86, 944 engine types 44/01 and 44/03 1982-85, 911 Turbo, 1984 on, 911 Carrera, 1985 on: Use high-octane unleaded. 944, engine types 44/05 and 44/06, approx Feb 1985 to 1987: Use highoctane unleaded or adjust engine control unit. 914/4 engine type GB, 9281978-79, 928S4 1987 on, 924S 1986-88, 9445/S2 and Turbos 1987 on, 944 1988 on, 911 Carrera 4 1989 on: OK on unleaded. Fuchs915 It has no consequences and is unnecessary but depending on the additive it may increase the octane rating. SP72 Mine says “Oktan min 98 ROZ/RON” and it’s in red not green. Hey Guys, I'm sorry if this a bit lengthy but it's not really an issue - I use an additive and it works for me - allows me to run ordinary un-leaded fuel, get some peace of mind and an octane boost to boot. My concern was about the corrosive effects of Ethanol. Obviously time to go back to the hills !!!!! BTW whilst at Porsche Classic I also learnt about what turned out to be a fully factory approved £15 modification to the oil system which gives my 105k untouched engine 1.5bar oil pressure at tick over when hot (rather than the previous 0.75bar), and a steady 4bar at anything over 2.5k rpm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Rock Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 BTW whilst at Porsche Classic I also learnt about what turned out to be a fully factory approved £15 modification to the oil system which gives my 105k untouched engine 1.5bar oil pressure at tick over when hot (rather than the previous 0.75bar), and a steady 4bar at anything over 2.5k rpm. Any more info? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buchanan3L2 Posted May 15, 2015 Author Share Posted May 15, 2015 I'll put the details in a new post under "oil & oil system" in case anyone else is interested. Any further news on your car? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Rock Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Any further news on your car? Waiting for the gearbox to be rebuilt. Nearly there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryH Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 I'll put the details in a new post under "oil & oil system" in case anyone else is interested. Any further news on your car? Is that Turbo oil restrictor mod? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuchs915 Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 PORSCHE index Note: Non-catalyst models only listed. 356, 912, 914/6, 914/4 with engine types W or AN, 911 all models to 1984 and all 911 SC, 924 pre-1979 and Turbo and Carrera GT: Fit higher specification valve seats and valves, and new guides. 924 1980 on, 928/928S 1980-86, 944 engine types 44/01 and 44/03 1982-85, 911 Turbo, 1984 on, 911 Carrera, 1985 on: Use high-octane unleaded. 944, engine types 44/05 and 44/06, approx Feb 1985 to 1987: Use highoctane unleaded or adjust engine control unit. 914/4 engine type GB, 9281978-79, 928S4 1987 on, 924S 1986-88, 9445/S2 and Turbos 1987 on, 944 1988 on, 911 Carrera 4 1989 on: OK on unleaded. Fuchs915 It has no consequences and is unnecessary but depending on the additive it may increase the octane rating. Obviously time to go back to the hills !!!!! Interesting, thanks. I had assumed that they were unleaded ready, mine is also an 84. I have ordered some whizz juice for piece of mind. If you find any more info in them thar hills, please bring it back and share Cheers Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Gander Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 My only knowledge on the oil pressure modification by Porsche factory was the substitute both the little adapters on the camshaft oil supply inlets with ones that had a smaller orifice (differentiated by a circular groove machines around the circumference on the spanner flats). This was supposedly to reduce the volume to the cams and prevent frothing in the sump! Anyway, the result of reducing the inlet hole diameter increases the oil pressure slightly. I cannot remember if this was noticeable on my Turbo when I changed out the adapters as it had good oil pressure anyway; it was just a mod that Porsche recommended be carried out so without question I complied........the Factory knows best eats, etc.! Regards, David. P.S. Have not a Scoobie as to the frothing or not in the sump......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryH Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 ^^^^^That's the mod I had done to mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buchanan3L2 Posted May 15, 2015 Author Share Posted May 15, 2015 David, Gary Yes, that's the one. Only mentioned it because I'd not seen it anywhere else on the forum and thought it was too good to be kept a secret! I'm still surprised how few seem to know about it. all the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tea boy Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 I would expect every 911 will have hardened valve seats else those valves are going to chomp through the ali. If the engine in question has an alloy head it will have shrunk in valve seats. They will be hard enough for unleaded petrol. If you print off that T & CC guide you could use it as toilet paper... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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