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Electric Air Conditioning. Will it work?


Jonny Hart

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7 hours ago, GaryH said:

Is that not a limitation on SC's and earlier Jonny given how comedically small the end of dash vents (slits!) are? 

They are small for sure but the main thing wrong with them is that they are only 'on' when the air is on the screen.  The screen vents being larger, gobble most of the air flow which is why the small vents are so ineffective.

On a hot day, blowing cold air on the screen is just a waste of cold air, you hardly notice it.  Now, if you blow cold on your feet, it is really noticeable (The porsche a/c could not do this).  So, if you 'connect' the small side vent flow with the foot vents and centre vent, you have the best of all worlds.  That's what I mean by 'repurposed'.

On the early cars, there are no dash level vents at all.  Got a plan for that too.

I don't think we'll be supplying the fan housings but will include instructions that can be taken to any good machine shop.

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Jonny Hart said:

They are small for sure but the main thing wrong with them is that they are only 'on' when the air is on the screen.  The screen vents being larger, gobble most of the air flow which is why the small vents are so ineffective.

On a hot day, blowing cold air on the screen is just a waste of cold air, you hardly notice it.  Now, if you blow cold on your feet, it is really noticeable (The porsche a/c could not do this).  So, if you 'connect' the small side vent flow with the foot vents and centre vent, you have the best of all worlds.  That's what I mean by 'repurposed'.

Cool. Been thoroughly considered and well thought out then :)

Edited by GaryH
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  • 1 month later...
26 minutes ago, Jonny Hart said:

Good work Jonny, best of luck with batch 1.

One comment on the payment page...I think you need to make it more clear that the £1495 in the buy now/Price area is a deposit only. I appreciate you state this in text above it but not everyone reads everything so needs to be crystal clear what the 'buy now' link actually means.

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Hi Jev,

In hear you but it's a CMS system / webshop so making a special case for one product is not easy without going under the hood.   I do use the word 'deposit' four or five times in the text and it is in the title too.  Do people really drop that much cash without reading at least the basic info?

 

Edited by Jonny Hart
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It's finally arrived! I have both the fuse modules already. Not sure if I'm in a position to put down a deposit immediately as I have a lot of works ongoing with the car (full / complete retrim, sorting rear belts, Targa roof refurb, wheels refinished, major service) but I do have some questions please.

Car: ~Sep 1984 UK delivered RHD Carrera 3.2 Targa

  • I like aircon. But can it even work in a Targa situation (roof on of course!)?
  • Can the button location be changed, e.g., to the console in front of the handbrake?
  • As I have a 3.2 (early one), is the alternator and cabling OK as-is?
  • Some typical aircon scenario / user stories:
    • A winter day, with window fogging. Car likely to have been on a tender (but not guaranteed). Car started, thermostatic control near hand brake set high, directed to windows on front controls, maybe fresh air blower on medium or high. Dipped lights turned on. Rear heater on second setting (high). Does aircon accelerate drying of air? Will aircon even activate? Outside temperature say 6-8 deg C. The drying function (for me at least) is I think an important function.
    • Scenario as above, but driver and passenger retrofitted heated seats on low.
    • New scenario: Nice day out (say 15-22 deg C). Targa roof on as some chance of rain or using front boot space. Start car. Dipped headlights on (yes, I always use them). Radio on. Hidden Bluetooth kit paired. Thermostatic fan lowish setting. Air con turned on. How will aircon perform?
    • Scenario as above: out for a drive, nice day. Hit heavy stop-start motorway traffic (more stop than start). Gets hot. How will aircon perform?
  • How is recirculation handled? E.g., want to set when behind a diesel truck etc. then disable
  • Does cabling run through existing fuse board, or new connections to battery?
  • I see the standard washer bottle needs to be moved. I have the headlight washers, but not the intensive washers (I think) as no second filler inside the front trunk compartment. What part (SKU) needs to be purchased to retain washer operation of windscreen and lights?
  • I have a new AGM battery - Banner Running Bull 57001 (12V 70AH) - assume this would be OK?
  • What is the aircon servicing interval, and how would it be serviced?
  • What is the warranty?
  • If you update the hardware (other than firmware) based on early user feedback, will there be some mechanism to take updates?
  • Do you have any photos with the carpet in place? I have just got this replaced, so am curious of the visual impact
  • What modifications are required to the early 3.2 fogtlight bracket? Do you have any photos?

Many thanks, apologies for all the questions!

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^^^ Crumbs, lot of questions!

The easy answers.

On the 3.2, the alternator and cabling will be fine, so will your battery.

The button can of course be moved, or hidden, or an existing button repurposed.

Cabling is a independent wiring loom supplied.  A few simple connections to the fuse panel and one 16mm2 cable to the battery.

We don't have an 'out of the box' solution for the lamp washers.  If it was a toss up between lamp washers and air con I know what I'd choose!

I see the recessed foglight bracket on the left side of the valance fouling the condenser.  The worst case scenario would be to have to chop it off completely and run a 'fake' foglight with the back removed.  These days I'd imagine an led foglight could be placed inside the old one so the depth could be minimised.  The best case is that the bracket just needs trimming.  Don't know until we try.

Recirculation is done by using a very sneaky trick.  I'm not going to divulge this here as it took us ages to figure out.  Needless to say you can control the amount of recirculation from the existing sliders. ;)

Servicing.  Similar to a new car I guess.  Considering the system is all new parts, the only service item would be a new condenser every 7 years or so.  The evaporator and condenser are OEM parts and readily available.  Fan is too.

Warranty.  Most A/C parts only carry a 1 year warranty.  I would have no hesitation to warranty 'our' parts for 5 years but that would not include service items.  I am talking to the compressor manufacturer about their warranty at the moment.

Hardware is settled and has plenty of room for expansion of functionality, the features are just software.  Either way, if you wanted to upgrade the ECU down the line, it won't cost you a fortune.

I have an SC carpet so it's not quite the same as the 3.2.  Pretty sure it will go back hiding everything but without the cornflakes packet cover.

 

Regarding your scenarios, I can't really answer because I don't have a Targa and it would cost a fortune to test all your use cases.  I've already conducted testing at Ricardo and we are going to Millbrook for another run.

All I do know is our system out performed the 964/993 system in the last test session and it was very close to the new car.  The limiting factor is the car design, not the ability of the A/C to cool the evaporator..

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jonny Hart said:

^^^ Crumbs, lot of questions!

The easy answers.

On the 3.2, the alternator and cabling will be fine, so will your battery.

The button can of course be moved, or hidden, or an existing button repurposed.

Cabling is a independent wiring loom supplied.  A few simple connections to the fuse panel and one 16mm2 cable to the battery.

We don't have an 'out of the box' solution for the lamp washers.  If it was a toss up between lamp washers and air con I know what I'd choose!

I see the recessed foglight bracket on the left side of the valance fouling the condenser.  The worst case scenario would be to have to chop it off completely and run a 'fake' foglight with the back removed.  These days I'd imagine an led foglight could be placed inside the old one so the depth could be minimised.  The best case is that the bracket just needs trimming.  Don't know until we try.

Recirculation is done by using a very sneaky trick.  I'm not going to divulge this here as it took us ages to figure out.  Needless to say you can control the amount of recirculation from the existing sliders. ;)

Servicing.  Similar to a new car I guess.  Considering the system is all new parts, the only service item would be a new condenser every 7 years or so.  The evaporator and condenser are OEM parts and readily available.  Fan is too.

Warranty.  Most A/C parts only carry a 1 year warranty.  I would have no hesitation to warranty 'our' parts for 5 years but that would not include service items.  I am talking to the compressor manufacturer about their warranty at the moment.

Hardware is settled and has plenty of room for expansion of functionality, the features are just software.  Either way, if you wanted to upgrade the ECU down the line, it won't cost you a fortune.

I have an SC carpet so it's not quite the same as the 3.2.  Pretty sure it will go back hiding everything but without the cornflakes packet cover.

 

Regarding your scenarios, I can't really answer because I don't have a Targa and it would cost a fortune to test all your use cases.  I've already conducted testing at Ricardo and we are going to Millbrook for another run.

All I do know is our system out performed the 964/993 system in the last test session and it was very close to the new car.  The limiting factor is the car design, not the ability of the A/C to cool the evaporator..

Hi Johnny,

Thanks for all the answers!

I may be misunderstanding on the lamp washers? I don't have the intensive washer button on my dash - just for the light washers - so I think this means both are plumbed off the main tank, with two pumps ( I had to replace one of the pumps). Is it the primary wash bottle or the (non existent for me) intensive wash bottle that you need to remove (not safe for me!) or change to a smaller bottle?

My foglights are as per the attached photo, They are partially recessed - are these the type that need the bracket modified?

The old boot carpet in second photo - should this fit over the condenser OK?

What do you mean by "cornflakes pack cover"? Is that the cover near the fusebox area?

Just on the drying - at what lower temp does the aircon shut down?

Will it interact OK with the thermostatic switch (near handbrake)?

foglights.jpg

boot.jpg

foglight.jpg

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It's the main washer bottle under the wing that gets deleted which will also get rid of the lamp washer pump.

Yes, those are the recessed fog lights.  It s not the light itself that is the problem, rather the mounting bracket which is integral to the valance.  I'm sure there is another way of holding the light there so the outward apeperance is the same.

Yes, the carpet will go over the new air box.  If you lift that carpet now you will see a cover made of cardboard - hence cornflake packet.

Our system does not have or need a thermostatic switch.  We offer two levels of cooling (normal and boost) that can be set up via a laptop currently but ultimately using a smart phone.  Once set, the single push button toggles between off/normal/boost,  I was running below freezing vent tempertures yesterday but this will be prevented in the firmware soon.  We are just implementing the climate control algorithm at the moment.

Whereabouts are you?  You are welcome to come see the ac in the car as is anyone who is interested.

 

 

Edited by Jonny Hart
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8 hours ago, Jonny Hart said:

It's the main washer bottle under the wing that gets deleted which will also get rid of the lamp washer pump.

Yes, those are the recessed fog lights.  It s not the light itself that is the problem, rather the mounting bracket which is integral to the valance.  I'm sure there is another way of holding the light there so the outward apeperance is the same.

Yes, the carpet will go over the new air box.  If you lift that carpet now you will see a cover made of cardboard - hence cornflake packet.

Our system does not have or need a thermostatic switch.  We offer two levels of cooling (normal and boost) that can be set up via a laptop currently but ultimately using a smart phone.  Once set, the single push button toggles between off/normal/boost,  I was running below freezing vent tempertures yesterday but this will be prevented in the firmware soon.  We are just implementing the climate control algorithm at the moment.

Whereabouts are you?  You are welcome to come see the ac in the car as is anyone who is interested.

 

 

Thanks! As you can tell, I'm trying to scope the work in terms not just of kit cost, but of changes to make, new parts, install labour etc.

OK, so I'd definitely need to source another washer bottle, fixings, and some plumbing to same (and relocating the lamp washer pump).

What I meant about thermostatic switch is the control system (replaces the heat levers  of older cars) that controls the footwell blowers, and heat distribution. Does this still function in the same way when the aircon is installed? I didn't realise it, but the fresh air blower was broken since I got the car (:blush:) so I relied on this control...

I pretty far from you so not sure if feasible - I'll send you an email.

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10 hours ago, Carrera32TargaSp said:

Thanks! As you can tell, I'm trying to scope the work in terms not just of kit cost, but of changes to make, new parts, install labour etc.

OK, so I'd definitely need to source another washer bottle, fixings, and some plumbing to same (and relocating the lamp washer pump).

What I meant about thermostatic switch is the control system (replaces the heat levers  of older cars) that controls the footwell blowers, and heat distribution. Does this still function in the same way when the aircon is installed? I didn't realise it, but the fresh air blower was broken since I got the car (:blush:) so I relied on this control...

I pretty far from you so not sure if feasible - I'll send you an email.

I am using an electric pump VW T2 bus washer bottle to good effect for the windscreen, you can see it in the photos.   I would say use that and then repurpose the original windscreen washer pump as the lamp wash pump.

So it sounds as though you are referring to the 'autoheat' system.  This will still function as normal but there is no connection between that and the a/c.  The a/c replaces the fresh air fan unit.

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On 2 April 2017 at 11:37 PM, World Citizen said:

Jonny, awesome job, just seen this, I've been locked in the Scalextric cupboard since last Oct. lost touch on how are you getting on with our friends from across the pond? 

Make sure the brushes are new and that those little brass rivets haven't fallen out.  And don't squeeze the trigger too hard.  

(Things are going in the right direction in La La land but slowly)

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On 4.4.2017 at 9:22 PM, Jonny Hart said:

Where have you mounted that Axel?

it came standard on all CTRs - in the footwell behind the seats 

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  • 1 year later...

I'm fairly certain after today the answer to the question posed by the thread title is 'Yes' :)  (It's taken two and a half years to answer)

img_0383.jpg

Outside air 34C, cabin 23C, vents at 9.5C.

img_0375.jpg

 

 

 

Edited by Jonny Hart
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Went to CLM with Jonny, with outside temps mid-30’s all day, every day, and we were the only 911 with closed windows 😱

20’C is a very pleasant travelling temperature - it certainly works 👏👏

Peter

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 7/30/2018 at 5:10 PM, sladey said:

Having experienced it first hand at CLM I can also confirm that Yes it works - really really well. It's on my shopping list - I'm sensing a good christmas this year

Having seen the installation and felt the cold air this Saturday, it’s really neat and works a a treat. 

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