Fatkenny Posted May 6, 2016 Share Posted May 6, 2016 Hi Sir P Wow that's a right bodge and a mass of work Would it not be easier and quicker to re shell ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sladey Posted May 6, 2016 Share Posted May 6, 2016 Interesting. That's really really crappy work at the front. The good news is that everything can be replaced - have a look through Paul's thread on DDK. If you also look through restoration threads on DDK - especially ones involving Barry Carter (his username is Barry and he is an absolute wizard with metal shaping) - I know he's detailed full restoration of those front parts - showing how the various panels are interleaved together - I know he's put detailed pictures up there but for the life of me I can't remember whose resto they were on. With regard to Celette another option might be to see if you can rent/borrow one for a period while you sort it out - get all your panels ready to go first though so you need it for the shortest period possible - put a wanted ad over on DDK and here on IB - you never know. I'm not convinced making one is such a good option as the thickness of steel required to make sure it's all perfect will mean it costs a fair bit in metal alone. You then would presumable need to borrow one in order to get the datum points (no idea on this) - would be cheaper to see if you can borrow one And on DDK - you should get yourself registered on there as well and post your updates - they love a resto thread and you'd be tapping into another source of knowledge and help (and maybe one or two Cellette owners) Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nige Posted May 6, 2016 Share Posted May 6, 2016 Was going to say there is a Celette on DDK for sale, but I've just checked and it's gone. http://www.ddk-online.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=55794&hilit=celette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sladey Posted May 6, 2016 Share Posted May 6, 2016 They are the sort of things though (like engine stands) that most people don't need very often so there's a good chance they are sitting there doing nothing for a long period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mondrian Posted May 6, 2016 Share Posted May 6, 2016 I have no idea about costs either way but why not take it to a shop that has one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirPinkleton Posted May 17, 2016 Author Share Posted May 17, 2016 Thanks for the responses guys. I appreciate the advice about the Celette and I have been seriously thinking about it. Unfortunately I have realised I will likely have the shell on a jig for a long time as recently I have only found the time to work on it for a few days a month. I wouldn't want to rush the work because I was hiring a jig - there is an awful lot of sheet metal to replace. I have been studying the body repair manual and the good news is, it contains fairly comprehensive dimensions between all the hard points. I am confident I can design and build something to provide accurate reference points in preparation for cutting out the entire front suspension pan and replacing it. I will then be able to check the front lines up with the new panel and adjust if necessary. To be fair though, the bonnet/front lid looks like it sits squarely over the new front and the catches appear to line up fine, so its possible the welding work was just sloppy despite being aligned properly (not naive enough to hold my breath though). I expect it would be easier to use a different shell, but I am committed to bringing this one back to life. I am sure a shop with a jig would be able to do the work quickly and easily, but I am looking to pick up some new skills through this project and I enjoy a good challenge. I guess I could post this thread to DDK as well, but I am terrible at remembering to come back and manage just this one! As you say though, it would be worth it for the additional raft of knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirPinkleton Posted May 19, 2016 Author Share Posted May 19, 2016 Last night I verified that the static positioning of all the front end pick up points is bang on spec according to the workshop manual. I tested this between multiple points on both sides with 2 different measuring tapes and 2 people checking (I wanted to be sure as bolt centre to bolt centre is a bit subjective). This is obviously good news, but doesn't change the fact I still have to fix the rust and poor repair jobs anyway. It made me feel a little better about the whole thing though I will be back with the rest of the pictures of the shell later... its not the worst I have seen, but its far from pretty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirPinkleton Posted June 2, 2016 Author Share Posted June 2, 2016 Apologies for the delay folks, but its time for to finish the tour of the shells current state. This is what the shell currently looks like after I went through and ground the surface rust away. I sprayed a very thin coat of zinc primer over everything to protect the bare metal and to give a good surface to circle 'areas for improvement' with the trusty sharpie. It appears to be the passenger side that has fared the worst over the decades of neglect it has suffered, so lets start with that side. Passenger front wheel well: I assume that at some point a previous owner did attempt a restoration judging by the amount of apparent repair sections on this thing. However, I have ground back some of the welds around a couple of these repair sections and discovered that about 20% show evidence of poor penetration. This doesn't mean that much really, as I was already planning to treat all previous repairs as suspect and go over everything again anyway. Passenger rear wheel well / inner fender: Yea, its pretty atrocious. Things don't get a lot better when you move around the back to the rear crossbeam: Surprisingly, looking through the pictures of the shell to find suitable ones to post is more eye-opening to the true state of it than actually looking at the real thing. I fear I am becoming blind to its major foibles. The pictures make me think FatKenny might have been right when with the suggestion of re-shelling being easier. Thankfully, things get a little better when we move round to the drivers side rear wheel well: Fear not, it was I who cut out the seat belt mount. I did it during a moment of madness. I plan to run harnesses so I don't need them. In hindsight though, I just gave myself some more (probably unnecessary) work! When I bought the shell, it had that newspaper stuffed into the rear torsion bar mounts. I have no idea why its there, but I still haven't removed it. I am afraid I will find it has harboured moisture and encouraged rust in the tube. I guess I will have to bite the bullet and inspect the inside at some point soon though... The drivers side front wheel well is also in better nick than the passenger side: Does anyone know what could have caused that 'hole' by the early cars ARB mount point? Also is it supposed to have that overlaid piece of sheet metal in that area (or is it a bodged 'repair' that has also failed in the same way)? Fear not guys, I think I only have one more posts worth of moderately depressing pictures to go before I begin its revival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Rock Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 I've seen worse at RUF... Keep going...and good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicestershire Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Try to get hold of a better shell. This has got to be beyond economical repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sladey Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 I assum you're going to do the welding yourself? If you were paying someone else to do it then no I'd agree it's not economic; if you're doing it yourself then it'll be a big job but fine if you take your time. That big hole in the front inner wing looks like a dodgy untreated repair that has rusted out. Why it would have needed the repair in the first place is anyone's guess - I think it's all one panel down there so maybe a previous impact. With a fair few of the bit's you're going to be better off with new panels rather than bitting and bobbing. That rear crossmember is weird with all those little holes in it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicestershire Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Hole near ARB mount - It looks like that part of the shell was originally fitted to a car with the auxiliary petrol heater. These cars had very fine slotted vents in this area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sladey Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Ahaaa - makes sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R2D2 Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Pinky - chin up mate. Can you weld? If not, you're gonna have to learn buddy! Fix her up and make her better than ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted June 3, 2016 Share Posted June 3, 2016 Certainly lots of work , but just tackle one section at a time methodically and you should be good , once you get that front end sorted and see the new panels it wont appear so daunting , stil a lot of hours mind , Looks like a repair panel has been fitted to the rh tortion tube ? . Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirPinkleton Posted June 3, 2016 Author Share Posted June 3, 2016 I've seen worse at RUF... Keep going...and good luck! Hah! That actually makes me feel better. Thanks! Pinky - chin up mate. Can you weld? If not, you're gonna have to learn buddy! Fix her up and make her better than ever. Welding is something I have wanted to learn how to weld for ages. This shell has been (and still is) the perfect excuse to get equipped and practiced! Thanks for the encouragement. Certainly lots of work , but just tackle one section at a time methodically and you should be good , once you get that front end sorted and see the new panels it wont appear so daunting , stil a lot of hours mind , Looks like a repair panel has been fitted to the rh tortion tube ? . Good luck This is exactly what I am hoping will happen. Looking at it now its difficult to see past the worst problems, but I plan to tackle the bits that I hate looking at most first (Front suspension pan, floor and inner LH wheel well - probably in that order). I'm sure I will feel better after that. You are also correct, it does appear the RH torsion tube has been subject to a previous repair. I am not confident in the quality of that previous repair either so I will be checking it over carefully and re-repairing it if necessary. Try to get hold of a better shell. This has got to be beyond economical repair. I assum you're going to do the welding yourself? If you were paying someone else to do it then no I'd agree it's not economic; if you're doing it yourself then it'll be a big job but fine if you take your time. That big hole in the front inner wing looks like a dodgy untreated repair that has rusted out. Why it would have needed the repair in the first place is anyone's guess - I think it's all one panel down there so maybe a previous impact. With a fair few of the bit's you're going to be better off with new panels rather than bitting and bobbing. That rear crossmember is weird with all those little holes in it Believe me, replacing the shell has crossed my mind multiple times - I have had it since Feb 2015 and most of the problems illustrated here were uncovered shortly after that. I have had plenty of time to mull this over and have settled on fixing it. I had never considered giving the thing to a shop to fix it - I am far too stubborn and independent to do a thing like that - but I agree, if I was going to pay someone to fix it I would be far better off finding a healthier shell. Maybe that realisation explains its current sorry state? I agree with using repair panels for a lot of it - where available (and economical) that's the way I intend to go about fixing it. I think there is a panel missing from the rear - the piece that the reflector bar mounts to. That would explain most of the small hoes on the rear crossbeam if someone drilled out the spot welds to 'liberate' this piece. The big holes on the corners though? That's a mystery... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirPinkleton Posted June 3, 2016 Author Share Posted June 3, 2016 Hole near ARB mount - It looks like that part of the shell was originally fitted to a car with the auxiliary petrol heater. These cars had very fine slotted vents in this area. Well what do you know... I just went and picked at the panel and discovered those little vents you mentioned behind whats left of the patch! That part of the wheel well looks original to the car, so maybe this did originally have that auxiliary heater you speak of? Safe to say though, I will not be reinstating that heater or the vents, but it is an interesting little detail about its former life. Thanks for the insight I will be back tomorrow with the last few pictures of its current state and then we can get on with fixing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirPinkleton Posted June 10, 2016 Author Share Posted June 10, 2016 Well, 'tomorrow' certainly didn't work out, but it's time to move on to the last parts of the shell that need attention. As you can probably imagine when looking at the rest of it, the windscreen corners are pretty nasty. This isn't something I am too bothered about though as the windscreen aperture is something I already intended to modify - I plan to increase the size of the windscreen mounting flange to accept the 993 bonded windscreen rather than the earlier chunky rubber mount kind. For some reason I thought it would be clever to take pictures of this rust issue from above, so I am actually standing on the tunnel and popping out of the sunroof - hence the weird perspective. As usual, you can see the passenger side is significantly worse off! While I was thinking about windscreen corners I removed some of the paint from the rear screen's lower corners fully expecting to see some hideous rot. For once though, I was pleasantly surprised! In yet another break from the norm, the drivers side looks (slightly) worse this time around. And that brings us to the last part of the shell... the roof. Now I had planned to delete the sunroof from the very beginning so at first, I paid literally no attention to the roof. This changed when I accidentally dropped a Mazda suspension unit on the corner of the sunroof - specifically the front drivers side corner. One of the top mount studs punched a hole through the outer roof skin alerting me to the presence of some pretty localised, but rather nasty rust. I stripped some of the paint back after that to see the extent of the issue and while not too bad it was still rather disheartening! I imagine that damage was caused by blocked sunroof drains and with that in mind I prodded all 4 corners. Surprisingly only the rear passenger side showed any signs of the dreaded rot. Typically though, it was worse! I will be the first to admit that I have no experience at all shaping metal, so I am not confident I can make repair panels to match the curvature / profile of the roof all that well. I had originally planned to follow Tea Boy's example to delete the sunroof, but I would need a much larger section to encompass both patches of corner rot. I did make a couple of attempts to get a suitable section of 993 to fix it all up, but there was always some extra damage that put me off (especially considering the price of the sections!). All is not lost though, I have settled on cutting most of the roof out and replacing it with a carbon panel! Doing this also provides significant amounts of additional access when it comes time to build the full cage. That about covers all of the (currently known) problems with the shell. The doors have major issues too, but solid doors seem pretty easy to come by at reasonable prices, so I may end up just replacing those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirPinkleton Posted June 10, 2016 Author Share Posted June 10, 2016 It may be the alcohol talking... but those gutters. At this point it would be foolish not to shave them would it not? I have also just noticed that suspicious section of the gutter in that last picture... how did I miss that on the shell? Shaving them off is starting to seem like a good idea... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mean in green Posted June 11, 2016 Share Posted June 11, 2016 The gutters are more complex in section than you might think. Did you know about the Porsche Technical Forum on Pelican Parts? Loads of reference material there, including removing the gutters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryH Posted June 11, 2016 Share Posted June 11, 2016 (edited) Did you know about the Porsche Technical Forum on Pelican Parts? Loads of reference material there, including removing the gutters. Yep. See RDane's car Edited June 11, 2016 by GaryH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALEX P Posted June 11, 2016 Share Posted June 11, 2016 Cut the whole roof off and replace with bonded on fibreglass of carbon roof? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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