3.2 Carrera - now a project!

[Robos911]

Quick question, I need to brace across the doors but would like to keep the doors fitted as this is my best datum, any ideas or do I just remove the doors by taking the pins out??? Also where do I put the brace, I don’t want to risk burning the dash???

Todays progress....

Spent the afternoon trying to line up door gaps, 4.6mm to start with (measured with vernier) sat on its wheels.

Used the “Barrie” method of leveling the car ready to do the sills!

1) Jacked the rear up on the engine flange and put axel stands under the torsion bar.  

2) Lifted the front up then supported on a single axel stand in the centre of the cross beam

The door gaps had now opened up to 5.3mm 

3) Used jack stands on the front suspension mounts, screwed up until they were just touching.

4) Jacked up the engine to take the weight off the shell, door gaps closed up to 3.5mm, after having a play opening and closing the doors I settled on 4mm which seemed to be the most even gap and the doors opened and closed smoothly, also don’t want to make it too tight because it might tighten up once the bracing is in place (shrinkage?).

5) Chocked the engine with a lump of wood and used the remaining 2 jackstand to support the back bumper (couldn’t get them under anywhere else as they were too tall!

All seems solid, next I need to weld on some support across the door gaps to hold it in position before I cut the sills off!

Removed more of the interior, looked like a can of spray glue has exploded in there at some time!  Also found traces of the doors having been previously braced....

[Leicestershire]

Door removal:

unclip check strap and punch hinge pins out.

Have you removed all the glass from the car?

Best looking at body restoration threads for details on bracing the body.

Just looking at the joint above the jack socket. This is not standard, has the car previously had sill or rear quarter work?

[fat fuchs]

I braced here...

Cheers

FF

[Robos911]

3 hours ago, Leicestershire said:

Just looking at the joint above the jack socket. This is not standard, has the car previously had sill or rear quarter work?

Thanks! I hadn’t realised this wasnt standard! It’s the same on both sides.  Yes there had been previous work of dubious quality which is why I’m striping it back, the sill on the other side had a weld 6” back from the front, i suspect they have fitted new kidney bowls but only the rear half of the sill has been replaced and welded to the original front half... won’t know for sure until I get the outer sill off!

[Robos911]

8 minutes ago, fat fuchs said:

I braced here...

Thanks!!

I will pick up some bar or angle this week!

looking forward to getting the sill off to see what’s there!  It’s like an archeological dig!!

[Flat 6]

Nothing wrong with replacing just the rear part of the sill if the rest of it is OK.  It's worth buying an endoscope so you can get a good look into your orifices...

But if work has already been done in there I'd try to do a good evaluation of it before cutting too deep.  If the welding is untidy but fundamentally sound then it may well clean up.  An endoscope and bent screwdriver should be enough to evaluate the front edge of your kidney bowls which is where I'd be looking at this stage.  If they're gone then your into cutting the lower front edge of the outer rear wing.  If you do have to cut rear wing then where you cut will depend on what the top corner of wing and b-pillar looks like - if that's OK then you can get away with a nice clean cut from wheelarch to half way up b-pillar (although some prefer a more rectangular cut only at the lower front edge of the rear outer wing).

Great work.

Al.

This was my first 911...John Millar's projects are good IB material!  As of course are Barry Carter's and many others including our own FF!

http://www.classiccarreras.com/911SC81.html

Al.

[Robos911]

 

14 minutes ago, Flat 6 said:

Nothing wrong with replacing just the rear part of the sill if the rest of it is OK.  It's worth buying an endoscope so you can get a good look into your orifices...

This was my first 911...John Millar's projects are good IB material!  As of course are Barry Carter's and many others including our own FF!

Al.

I’ve been having a good look through Classic Carrera, lots of useful info!!

I had a prod at the kidney bowls and they seem solid (pic below), I will try using a bent prodder to check the front!! 

The front of the sill (that wasn’t replaced) is rotten with holes in it, along with the floor edge (pics).  I don’t really want to just replace the front of the sill so I’m planning on doing the full outer as a minimum and seeing what I find once it’s off!

thanks

Steve

[Phill]

Have a look here for what I did. Many of us have been here. Don't go mental until you know what's in there.

 

[Robos911]

53 minutes ago, Phill said:

Have a look here for what I did. Many of us have been here. Don't go mental until you know what's in there.

 

Phil, 

Thanks, I had missed your thread! Great work and some good easy to follow pics!! Was the other side ok? 

Cheers

Steve

[Phill]

Not done the other side yet 

[Robos911]

7 hours ago, Leicestershire said:

Have you removed all the glass from the car?

Glass is all still In the car, I wasn’t planning on removing until the sills were done and I’m doing the window surrounds. Why do you ask, have I missed something?

[Leicestershire]

3 hours ago, Robos911 said:

Glass is all still In the car, I wasn’t planning on removing until the sills were done and I’m doing the window surrounds. Why do you ask, have I missed something?

Sparks from grinding and welding always find their way onto the glass resulting in fragments of metal embedded in the surface.

[Robos911]

1 hour ago, Leicestershire said:

Sparks from grinding and welding always find their way onto the glass resulting in fragments of metal embedded in the surface.

Ah, with you 👍

I might have ballsed up with this early on but then I covered them with old blankets when I was grinding and welding so hopefully ok! I didn’t want to take anything out that might help with rigidity until I knew how bad it was!!

[Leicestershire]

The screens on these are just held in by the rubber seals. They offer no additional rigidity to the body. 

[sladey]

+1 fro Jon Miller - classic Carreras - his website stories are fantastic for a good appreciation of what it's going to look like before you get in there. 

I left my doors on through all the structural work - you can still brace with the doors there - the doors then give you good datum for the shutlines

 

[PeterK]

Doors off makes access to the front of the sill so much easier. I did leave the doors on for a lot of the time though (with aperture braced), to regularly check alignment (door to sill, door to striker/b-post, door to rear quarter, etc). Photos on my DDK targa thread.

Peter

Edited July 2, 2018 by PeterK

[Robos911]

Learnt a couple of things this week! 

1) The fluffy underfelt stuff makes great tinder

2) You can’t see flames with a welding mask on!!

 

On 7/2/2018 at 6:43 PM, PeterK said:

Doors off makes access to the front of the sill so much easier. I did leave the doors on for a lot of the time though (with aperture braced), to regularly check alignment (door to sill, door to striker/b-post, door to rear quarter, etc). Photos on my DDK targa thread.

Peter

 

Shamelessly copied the bracing PeterK did, seems solid!! 

Then effortlessly drifted the door pins out.... said nobody ever!! 

Once the door was off I could get at the outer sill......

 

[Robos911]

Now I am in a dilemma... the outer sill has been replaced other than the front 6”. They have used a genuine Porsche sill (sticker still present) and looking inside towards the back the inner sill and outer looks sound... having a prod around the kidney bowl that is also solid.... so it has all been replaced.  I’ve ordered a borescope so I can have a better look inside (should be here Monday).

The front end is completely shot, the new sill has been fitted overlapping the old sill which is heavily rusted, the inner sill, is also rusted.  

Options are:

1) Patch the front inner sill, replace the bottom of the filtch? panel and front of the outer sill, gets rid of all the visible rust and minimal work.

I'm not sure I trust any of the work that’s previously been done though???

2) Cut the full sill off and the bottom of the rear wing to get access and do it all properly..... is this overkill if I take it all off and find they did a decent job and there is no rust???

oh decisions...

View toward rear inside sill

[Phill]

If it is sound, leave it! Just cut out the rusty parts.

[fat fuchs]

Personally I would remove the whole sill. A new sill is no money in comparison to the hassle of going back in again after you've had the whole car painted should any corrosion appear in the area you left untouched. It's a peace of mind thing. If you 'butt joint' a section in, how will you clean up the weld behind and protect from future rust? Just my opinion, but you're doing a great job on the car so feels a shame to cut corners here. Even if it is OK when you open it up, you'll have the knowledge that you now have a complete unmodified sill section in place.

Cheers

FF

[Robos911]

9 hours ago, fat fuchs said:

Personally I would remove the whole sill. 

Starting to wonder if I’ve bitten off more than I can chew!!

It didn’t take much digging to make my decision! Had an hour free this evening so I thought I would take a look. The sill was stitch welded and it didn’t take much to take off, no way it would have been as strong as a spot welded version! Once I had most of it off I found this... not sure what but it doesn’t look standard?? Also found a pile of patches in the floor which were covered in filler and some great filler sculpting, probably took longer than it would to do it right!! 

The last pic is what I was expecting to see, credit Classic Carreras!... I’m having a think about it now...

[Robos911]

Doh!!

So it’s the later style kidney bowl!!

[fat fuchs]

12 hours ago, Robos911 said:

Doh!!

So it’s the later style kidney bowl!!

Yep but it looks like it's been fitted over some less than solid metal. Worthy of further investigation...Keep the pics coming - good stuff!

Cheers 

FF

[Robos911]

Just now, fat fuchs said:

Yep but it looks like it's been fitted over some less than solid metal. Worthy of further investigation...Keep the pics coming - good stuff!

Cheers 

FF

There is also a series of plug welds along its length, should these be there? I wondered if it’s fitted over the old one, otherwise what are these welded too??

cheers

 

[fat fuchs]

1 hour ago, Robos911 said:

There is also a series of plug welds along its length, should these be there? I wondered if it’s fitted over the old one, otherwise what are these welded too??

cheers

 

That style kidney section wouldn't normally be welded at that point (in my experience). Should just be spot/plug welded along its top and bottom flanges along that section so there may have been some additional creative metalwork done behind there. If it seems to be a solid repair and your door/wing gap is OK at the top then it may be worth leaving. If you need to close the door gap then removing it makes sense so you can fit new when you have your gaps as you want them.

Cheers

FF