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3.2 Carrera - now a project!


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On 2/23/2019 at 6:27 PM, Robos911 said:

Yes, after sleeping on it... always a good move... I thought it was a silly idea to move the car before the outer sill was welded on... seeing as the outer sill gives it a fair chunk of its rigidity!!  Sometimes I overthink it 😂

Thanks, I’m just looking at it as one little job after another and eventually it will be finished... probably...👍

If you still have the engine in the car, get it on the wheels before final welding and gap setting. Targa's bend in the middle quite a lot so if you set perfect gaps with the car raised they will be different when you drop it back on the wheels. Not such an issue if the engine is removed or if it's on a proper jig however.

 

Cheers

FF

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12 hours ago, fat fuchs said:

If you still have the engine in the car, get it on the wheels before final welding and gap setting. Targa's bend in the middle quite a lot so if you set perfect gaps with the car raised they will be different when you drop it back on the wheels. Not such an issue if the engine is removed or if it's on a proper jig however.

 

Cheers

FF

Hmm.. I’m in a bit of a dilemma now, the engine is still in but there is no weight from it on the body, it was chocked on wooden blocks and caravan stands.  I would’ve thought that putting it back on the wheels and removing the engine chocks would cause the Targa to open up  but with no outer sill I would’ve thought this would be more pronounced as not all the strength is in the sill yet? I was planning on welding the outer sill into position as it is now, with everything in a known position ie where it was when I cut the old sill off, then once all the strength was back in the sill, drop it back onto the wheels before setting the b post gaps and welding b post and rear 1/4 in place?  

I would’ve thought that worst case the gap along the sill wouldn’t change too much, it was 1.5 originally and I didn’t note any change with engine weight in or out although at the top of the b post I was getting 5.25 at top engine in but with weight off the engine it closed to 4.7. aiming for 3mm ish now £1coin!!

Hope you follow that ramble and I’m not doubting you but I want to make sure I get this right!! Ive sill got the A post closing panels to make up so won’t be doing this bit for a while??

ta in advance 

Steve

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11 hours ago, Robos911 said:

Hmm.. I’m in a bit of a dilemma now, the engine is still in but there is no weight from it on the body, it was chocked on wooden blocks and caravan stands.  I would’ve thought that putting it back on the wheels and removing the engine chocks would cause the Targa to open up  but with no outer sill I would’ve thought this would be more pronounced as not all the strength is in the sill yet? I was planning on welding the outer sill into position as it is now, with everything in a known position ie where it was when I cut the old sill off, then once all the strength was back in the sill, drop it back onto the wheels before setting the b post gaps and welding b post and rear 1/4 in place?  

I would’ve thought that worst case the gap along the sill wouldn’t change too much, it was 1.5 originally and I didn’t note any change with engine weight in or out although at the top of the b post I was getting 5.25 at top engine in but with weight off the engine it closed to 4.7. aiming for 3mm ish now £1coin!!

Hope you follow that ramble and I’m not doubting you but I want to make sure I get this right!! Ive sill got the A post closing panels to make up so won’t be doing this bit for a while??

ta in advance 

Steve

"I’m in a bit of a dilemma now, the engine is still in but there is no weight from it on the body,"

This is the issue. If you weld everything up as is and start setting gaps, they will change when the car is back on its wheels as the engine weight comes into play. You can over compensate for this by creating a very tight door gap at the top in the knowledge that when you get the car back on its wheels the gap will open but that's guess work really. The sill to door gap is less of an issue but the rear quarter to door gap is the one that will change (getting wider from the bottom of the door to the top) and this has a knock on effect vertically up to the targa roof panel gaps.

Tricky one to explain but i've seen quite a few Targa resto's where this has happened. If you have a £1 coin gap at the top of the B post with no engine weight on the car, that will open up for sure when it's back on the ground. After all the work you've put in, it's worth checking door and roof panel gaps with the car on wheels before you pop the outer sills on.

Cheers

FF

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/3/2019 at 9:27 AM, fat fuchs said:

After all the work you've put in, it's worth checking door and roof panel gaps with the car on wheels before you pop the outer sills on.

Cheers

FF

OK cheers, I will have a good check before I crack on with the welding!

The way things are going it could be a while, I seem to be caught up with lots of little repairs.  I’ve just made up a repair to the sill closing panel....

And still trying to get the bloody dash out!

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In my limited experience, the third bullet from the bottom should read

- carefully lift dashboard cover to snap release clips 

 

Thankfully the selection of different types of clip are not that expensive to replace, unlike most things on the 911 

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  • 2 months later...

A visit to Porsche on the Prom last weekend reminded me that I’ve got an old 911 in the garage so I thought I better get back to it!!

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I’ve not touched it for a while because the Campervan decided to dump its oil on the path in quite a major way!! Engine out and lots of new seals later it’s back to having a minor dribble which seems to be about as good as it gets....

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With camping season only a few weeks away the plan was to get it going and hope that it should last long enough for me to finish the 911 before i do a full rebuild, which would also give me a bit of practice before I try anything similar on the Porsche!

Not much Porsche progress but I did get to take loads of pics of how things go together at POTP so I’ve been making little closing panels for the sill end. 

The bit in the red circle is proving to be a pita!!  Close up of what I’m aiming for on the red car.

The green circle is a big hole, any idea if anything is supposed to go here? You won’t see it because of the plastic cover so my thoughts were to leave it as an access hole for wax!

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And some more pics from POTP....

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just caught up with this thread again - some great work here and impressive to see how your skills have improved. It’s interesting when you first look at a rusty mess it seems impossible but when you break it down to it’s component parts it starts to make sense.

Re: putting it back on the wheels etc my feeling would be NO. The doors are your best datum for the door gaps and you’ve set it up for those gaps etc. I would weld it up in the position you locked it into. If you drop it onto the wheels at this stage and it sags you are then going to have to try and straighten a jelly mold by jacking it up in the middle before welding it “straight” - I think you would then be in a world of pain. Logically you already have it in position now - don’t lose that position. Jon Miller of Classic Carreras advised me similarly on my build - start from the doors and work outwards.

My only other suggestion would be to try and focus on getting one area completely finished before moving on to the next bit - e.g. get the sills all done and buttoned up before starting the rear wing issues or windscreen issues. Psychologically parts of the car will look like a car again instead of everything looking like a project. Just my 2 penny’s worth and I appreciate we are all different. 

One last point - on your rear spring plate mounts you can also buy strengthening pieces from elephant racing - these are additional plates that go around the 4 mounting holes. I’m revisiting the rear of my car at the moment and I’m going to pop them on - as a belt and braces sort of thing. You may feel it’s not needed on yourself as you’ll have so much new metal in that area anyway.

Keep up the good work and keep the pics coming

 

 

 

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Re: putting it back on the wheels etc my feeling would be NO. The doors are your best datum for the door gaps and you’ve set it up for those gaps etc. I would weld it up in the position you locked it into. If you drop it onto the wheels at this stage and it sags you are then going to have to try and straighten a jelly mold by jacking it up in the middle before welding it “straight” - I think you would then be in a world of pain.

That's the point, whatever is done setting gaps on Targa's while the car is elevated, when it is back on its wheels the engine weight will open the gaps at the top of the door and spoil the gaps (i've seen it happen several times). With the car on its wheels and the engine in the car you can set the gaps knowing they won't change. Different ball game with coupe's.

Just trying to be helpful based upon hard learnt experiences of old fatigued Targa shells.

Best

FF

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Good skills on that panel making Sir!
On your queries above, the indent with the hole on the upper surface of the sill near the front is there on the SC so I suspect it's there on the 3.2 or maybe this is a generic sill.  

When it left the factory it had a small plate in there which I think is just glued in.  I couldn't see any spot welds on my good side anyway.

So, when I covered up that hole on the side that didn't have it, I just made a plate to match the good side and glued it in place with epoxy.  I didn't fit it before I painted the car so that I could get wax in there after it was painted.  You've already thought of that!

I would second a quick PM to Barry Carter for your other query.  He's been very helpful to me in the past.

Cheers,

Al.

 

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Thanks for the advice all, my thoughts at the moment are to weld the outer sill in place with everything supported in a known position, I think any flexing of the shell when I lower it back onto the wheels will result in minimal movement along the sill to door line, I would expect it to be exaggerated at the top of the door to rear wing so the B post and rear wing gaps I will sort with everything back on the wheels.... subject to much more dithering... also I can’t put it back on the wheels yet as the rear suspension is in bits🤔

Ive just been playing with the front wing and I’m not too impressed with the gaps here. I think part of the problem I have is that non of the gaps were ever very good and I had just not worried about it but now I’m putting it back together I want it as good as I can get!

Lots more playing and procrastination to go!

I will have a look at the elephant supports, I did think about adding some reinforcement when I was doing the repairs in that area.

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8 hours ago, sladey said:

I’m also just trying to be helpful and I’m not saying I’ve got the answer either. You might be best PM’ing Barry over on DDK as he knows so much about these cars

Good suggestion, that mans work is exceptional.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Well, i sent Barry a PM but didnt get a response, so i bit the bullet and went with my gut.  The outer sill is now fully welded using £1 coins to set my gaps with the door which are spot on, hopefully they will stay somewhere near when its back on the floor to weld the rear 1/4 on!

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Next i started cleaning up the old panels and removing the layers of filler!! I actually used magnets when i was looking at it and missed this lot!! The sills were ok though so that went well....

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Coat of etch primer and trial fit

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Lots of work to do on this outer wing, i think really i could justify a new one but im going to persevere and see what it looks like.... needs a new section at the top by the targa bar and then all the joints 🤔

On a +ve with all the filler gone ive halved the weight if the car!

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So back to the inner wing, last rusty bit on this 1/4 finished off, getting the hang of welding now, its all in the prep! Next the inner arches coated with epoxy mastic and outer sill etch primed.

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Also managed to drill out the trailing arm bolts ready to refit the suspension and get it back on its wheels!

slightly long winded post but a bit of progress!  

Heres hoping👍

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 6/29/2019 at 6:08 AM, Phill said:

Excellent work! Must be very satisfying for you. Great thread.

Thanks, its nice to see it starting to come together!!

New bushes arrived so i could get the suspension back together and get it on its wheels to start work on the rear 1/4.

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Getting the old spring plate apart was a bit harder than i expected, bolts were seized, the two halves if the plate were bowing out from the rust between them and i couldnt get the rubber bush off. 20 mins in the fire pit sorted that out, they came up really well and the bolts undid easily!B8F371AA-C812-4384-BF5E-A309D9DD23E3.thumb.jpeg.3a9c8f2dedbb5165ba5495759387562d.jpeg

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All back together now and sat back on its wheels!  EED8EA35-AA0D-4D8F-9A90-F295BA2B37D9.thumb.jpeg.1e339d13d3fa8b5c6841117e175d1a7e.jpeg

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when i cut the support bar i had welded across the doors there was very little movement, less than 0.5 mm. The gaps between the bottom of the door and sill have increased from 3.5 to 4mm uniformly which i thought was odd, checked to make sure the door was at the bottom of the bracket and it is. Happy with the gap though it was originally 1mm at its closest! Now its nice and even.

Time to start the rear wing repairs, started at the top and working my way down...

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Pleased with that, just a coat of weld through at the moment so minimal filler required 👍

Took my time with the weld, its my first visible weld so i did a series of spots a couple of inches apart then let the panel fully cool before the next one until they were all stitched together, took a while but there doesn't seem to be any distortion 🙂

Still need to add the return flange but i thought it would be easier to make in 2 pieces.

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Great progress and all looking good. I'm sure you will anyway but just test fit the 'hoop' before paint as they often require adjustment where the threaded fixings pass through the rear wing section you're working on now. Great thread.

Cheers

FF

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  • 2 months later...

No updates for a while but now summers over ive been able to get back to it... So after sending far too long messing about repairing the existing rear 1/4 and trying to get a decent fit i finally decided (after a bit of cajoling from others on here!!) to take my own advice from earlier in the thread to buy a panel if theres one available!!

I had repaired the top of the old wing but it still needed 2 big welds, a bottom repair section and the existing brazing from the last repairs (yellow) was looking a mess....

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Not that ive actually bought it yet but i have now cut the rest of the 1/4 off and im glad i did! I can now get at the whole inner wing where i found quite a bit of surface rust just in time, untreated this would have ended up a mess after all my efforts!

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Also found another hole so a small patch was needed.

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This will be hidden under the new wing flange when fitted.

I just need to pony up and order the new panel, £1100 from Porsche with club discount, gulp🙁

Moved back to the front screen surround next, i hadnt been able to get the dash out before but after looking at the manual i thought i would have a go.... three hours and lots of swearing later it was out... and nothing like the description in the book!! All the dials out, ratchet spanners were the order of the day, the bolt hidden behind the resistor was a really fun one!

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Now its out i’m thinking of a colour change to black???

Started letting in some new steel in the scuttle panel just doing small sections so i dont lose the lines, this is a visible weld and im quite happy with it👍

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This was much more awkward than it looks because it was 2 layers and the both needed repairs.

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With a bit more grinding back once its all finished i should need next to no filler!

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