Improving my SC

[WP0ZZZ]

5 hours ago, 786 said:

Truth be told, it felt insufficient on the first drive, but it might have been worn out by PO. 

The brakes of my SC were not in top condition but they were still good for a few fast laps on a track with pretty heavy repeated braking until the fluid boiled. Since then, I have refurbished the calipers, installed reinforced hoses and I'm using high-performance brake fluid. Brakes are really good now.

[786]

4 hours ago, WP0ZZZ said:

The brakes of my SC were not in top condition but they were still good for a few fast laps on a track with pretty heavy repeated braking until the fluid boiled. Since then, I have refurbished the calipers, installed reinforced hoses and I'm using high-performance brake fluid. Brakes are really good now.

Hmm, how stiff is your brake pedal? Meaning how much travel do you have? Mine has very little and the braking performance seems marginal. But the car had been sitting for awhile so may just need a flush and pads. I was planning new rotors, pads, ss lines, and hi-temp fluid as a baseline but am thinking about the Boxster calipers to "do it right" the first time and be done with it. I want 15" wheels though so not sure if it will fit. 

[Leicestershire]

2 minutes ago, 786 said:

Hmm, how stiff is your brake pedal? Meaning how much travel do you have? Mine has very little and the braking performance seems marginal. But the car had been sitting for awhile so may just need a flush and pads. I was planning new rotors, pads, ss lines, and hi-temp fluid as a baseline but am thinking about the Boxster calipers to "do it right" the first time and be done with it. I want 15" wheels though so not sure if it will fit. 

Assuming you have the engine running during your tests??

Description sounds like possible fault with the servo assistance.

Boxster calipers fit under 15" wheels.

I have the full 'upgrade' on mine. Boxster fronts, 930 master cylinder,  3.2 rear calipers, 3.2 discs x4, 2500 pads, SRF fluid, braided hoses etc.

The end result is no better than standard SC brakes with good fluid and pads. 

[mean in green]

 

9 minutes ago, Leicestershire said:

The end result is no better than standard SC brakes with good fluid and pads. 

Seems to be a common observation.

[786]

11 minutes ago, Leicestershire said:

Assuming you have the engine running during your tests??

Description sounds like possible fault with the servo assistance.

Boxster calipers fit under 15" wheels.

I have the full 'upgrade' on mine. Boxster fronts, 930 master cylinder,  3.2 rear calipers, 3.2 discs x4, 2500 pads, SRF fluid, braided hoses etc.

The end result is no better than standard SC brakes with good fluid and pads. 

Yes sir, engine running. That was experienced while driving, it did feel like how a brake pedal would feel with the engine off now that you mention it. 

Thanks for the tip, ill have the servo checked. And interesting to note that you feel all of your upgrades still equate to a fresh standard setup. Would you not recommend the upgrade then?

My car will be exclusively street driven so maybe a standard refresh wiser anyway. Appreciate the insight, someone also told me to look at a 930 Turbo's brake setup but that may be the same story.

[Leicestershire]

Brakes often take the  blame for driver error.

I am sure that everyone driving their first track-day has blamed their brakes for having a soft pedal and reduced performance. Driver instruction will in most cases (and certainly on these cars) teach drivers how to use the car and the previous issues just disappear.

4 minutes ago, 786 said:

 

Thanks for the tip, ill have the servo checked. And interesting to note that you feel all of your upgrades still equate to a fresh standard setup. Would you not recommend the upgrade then?

 

Having driven with both setups I wouldn't do it again. A set of refurbished calipers with good pads, fluid and fresh hoses provide great balance, modulation and feel.

[786]

Understood, I will stick to an OEM refresh then. Any pad recommendations?

Thanks for your insights btw.

[WP0ZZZ]

I use Ferodo DS2500 which give me very good feel on the track and they are perfectly ok on the road even when cold. No squealing for me.

Not sure how used you are to driving Porsches but brakes are not overly assisted even in cars from the 2000s. Every time I rent a crappy new car when going on holiday I almost lock the tyres on the first roundabout due to the amount of assistance new cars have. Some people correlate low pedal effort with good brakes and this couldn't be further from the truth.

[WP0ZZZ]

And regarding the short pedal travel: some people in the Porsche community go crazy bleeding and re-bleeding brakes because the brake pedal does not feel stiff enough to them. So if yours is already stiff (the brake pedal, I mean), you should be happy about it

To properly assess brakes, you need to brake at the limit where tyres almost lock and look for: front tyres that lock before rear and more or less at the same time on both sides, good control of brakes close to locking, brake feel that keeps stable even after dozens of very hard stops going downhill on a mountain road (or at a track if you eventually decide to track it.) 

When I bought my SC, the right front tyre would lock much earlier than the left. I cleaned all brake pistons (see below), fitted new calliper o-rings and changed to high-temp brake fluid. Brake feel after many hard longs stops is amazing now.

 

[Leicestershire]

1 hour ago, 786 said:

Understood, I will stick to an OEM refresh then. Any pad recommendations?

Thanks for your insights btw.

DS2000/2500 on the front, Mintex1166 on the rear works very well - shifting the bias a bit further back without causing any problems in wet conditions.

[786]

1 hour ago, WP0ZZZ said:

I use Ferodo DS2500 which give me very good feel on the track and they are perfectly ok on the road even when cold. No squealing for me.

Not sure how used you are to driving Porsches but brakes are not overly assisted even in cars from the 2000s. Every time I rent a crappy new car when going on holiday I almost lock the tyres on the first roundabout due to the amount of assistance new cars have. Some people correlate low pedal effort with good brakes and this couldn't be further from the truth.

Thanks for the pad recommendation, would you choose this pad for a pure street car as well or is there a more suitable choice? 

My only other Porsche has been a 997 Turbo and it's brake feel was faultless. Huge stopping power from big speeds with no drama whatsoever. It was fairly modern though, and everything else I have owned or driven has been fairly modern so this is a first for me. If this is normal pedal effort no problem, I just want to ensure nothing is wrong. 

46 minutes ago, WP0ZZZ said:

And regarding the short pedal travel: some people in the Porsche community go crazy bleeding and re-bleeding brakes because the brake pedal does not feel stiff enough to them. So if yours is already stiff (the brake pedal, I mean), you should be happy about it

To properly assess brakes, you need to brake at the limit where tyres almost lock and look for: front tyres that lock before rear and more or less at the same time on both sides, good control of brakes close to locking, brake feel that keeps stable even after dozens of very hard stops going downhill on a mountain road (or at a track if you eventually decide to track it.) 

When I bought my SC, the right front tyre would lock much earlier than the left. I cleaned all brake pistons (see below), fitted new calliper o-rings and changed to high-temp brake fluid. Brake feel after many hard longs stops is amazing now.

Haha, good to know. My pedal is pretty stiff as-is so I certainly wouldn't want it any stiffer. I will definitely assess the brakes as you mentioned, that's similar to a pad bed-in procedure. 

Good work finding and fixing your braking culprit. I wish I had the time and skill to tackle these kinds of jobs. 

23 minutes ago, Leicestershire said:

DS2000/2500 on the front, Mintex1166 on the rear works very well - shifting the bias a bit further back without causing any problems in wet conditions.

Ok, thank you. I will look to do this setup and see how I like it. I also want to lighten the car so should help suspension & braking have an easier time of it.

[Rustybum]

49 minutes ago, Leicestershire said:

DS2000/2500 on the front, Mintex1166 on the rear works very well - shifting the bias a bit further back without causing any problems in wet conditions.

Sorry to crash this .

Can you tell me where to buy these from or part numbers please?

I can’t find them listed anywhere.

Regards

Russ

[Northy]

Ferodo pads - I use https://www.circuitsupplies.com/ - just had a set of 3.2 front and rears and it was about £170.  Not sure of a supplier on the Mintex ones.  

I've run DS2500 on both axels for ages and have zero complaints with them (other than cost increase).  But pads are like other consumables, in that they all split opinion on what's best.

 

[WP0ZZZ]

51 minutes ago, 786 said:

Thanks for the pad recommendation, would you choose this pad for a pure street car as well or is there a more suitable choice? 

Not sure about what sort of street driving you are planning to do but unless it's very extreme I wouldn't obsess about pads. I'm running standard pads on a few cars for road and light track and they tend to be ok. In general I've had fluid boil before pads are reaching their limit.

[786]

Gotcha, I am not doing very extreme street driving so that's a valid point.

That being said, I have found upgrading pads, adding better fluid, and ss lines improves braking feel and linearity so I tend to do this on every car.

The only car I have owned where I didn't mess with the brakes was my aforementioned 997 Turbo. Maybe Porsche is the exception to the rule here...

EDIT: and FYI, I obsess about everything 😆

Edited August 6, 2018 by 786

[Leicestershire]

1 hour ago, Rustybum said:

Sorry to crash this .

Can you tell me where to buy these from or part numbers please?

I can’t find them listed anywhere.

Regards

Russ

I think Ferodo DS2000’s have been replaced by 2500’s. 

I got my 2000’s and Mintex 1166’s from Brakes International in Rochdale.

[Rustybum]

1 hour ago, Northy said:

Ferodo pads - I use https://www.circuitsupplies.com/ - just had a set of 3.2 front and rears and it was about £170.  Not sure of a supplier on the Mintex ones.  

I've run DS2500 on both axels for ages and have zero complaints with them (other than cost increase).  But pads are like other consumables, in that they all split opinion on what's best.

 

Great!!

thank you!!

16 minutes ago, Leicestershire said:

I think Ferodo DS2000’s have been replaced by 2500’s. 

I got my 2000’s and Mintex 1166’s from Brakes International in Rochdale.

Brill!!

thank you!!

[strosek34]

I've been using DS2500's for years as well,  road and track,  with no issues at all.

Me too,  from Circuit Supplies.