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Injectors..again


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Hi Peoples,

So on Sunday morning the car decide to feel a bit rough, wasn't running as smooth as before, feld like it misfired now and again, etc etc.

It turned out that one of my injectors wasn't spraying correctly so a reclean and all is well again.

Whilst the injectors were being inspected, tested and cleaned Warren kindly investigated the cost of new ones (only OEM and £200 each), any possible direct fit alternatives and found a company called ASNU that would custom build a set (about £130 each ) for you based on your rebuilt engines specification.

So the question to the learned audience is, are standard injectors Ok for our mild upgrades, if not has anyone done something like this?

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I’ve got ASNU on mine, but upgrade not needed with Motronic.  Standard injectors were overloaded on mine with Motec (sequential firing), hence the upgrade.

All according to Neil, of course.

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5 minutes ago, SP72 said:

I’ve got ASNU on mine, but upgrade not needed with Motronic.  Standard injectors were overloaded on mine with Motec (sequential firing), hence the upgrade.

All according to Neil, of course.

Just got off the phone to Nick Fulljames, he say standard injectors are fine only need to change if you go for much bigger BHP.

As you say, Montonic is the bottleneck, if you change the ECU then can go for different injectors to optimise, additionally more Dyno choices. 

 

 

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What I forgot to add is that Montonic is a pigs ear to tune and even then the tune is a compromised due to this the limited capability of the unit.

So one either goes for 6 new standard injectors plus a WS tune so lets say £2k or you opt for something like Canems Motronic kit or a similar kit from Lloyd specialise development (N Fulljames recommendation). The are highly tunable, must Dyno's will be able to tune accordingly but cost is around around £3.5k

  !

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£1200 for new injectors - that seems ridiculous.  Search Five O Motorsport and you'll find matched new injectors for a fraction of that figure ........

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Different engine to yours but I found myself in a similar situation in that the standard 964 injectors are supposed to run out of steam at 310bhp and at the time my previous dyno was at 308bhp so I wasn't comfortable with my injectors running flat out at near enough 100% of their duty cycle and also didn't want them to become a performance bottleneck.

Wayne advised me that what you don't want to do is go too big on your injectors. Basically you want injectors that are big enough with a little extra margin but not too much (as is often the temptation) as you will lose all of the accuracy. You also need to make sure that any larger output replacements have the correct spray pattern. My options were to swap to 993 injectors or funnily enough E36 M3 injectors which is what I ended up using. You can pick up a set for very sensible money. I bought a good used set then had them checked and overhauled with new seals, cleaned, spray patterns & output checked etc etc.

My Stateside advice is in my old engine thread here, scroll down to post #117 

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/584094-964-engine-rebuild-questions-6.html

If you want to do some homework then most of the info is out there. Here is a load of the injector specs for you:

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm

+ There's various calculators such as this one:

https://www.rcfuelinjection.com/technical 

Have you considered swapping to 964/993/E36 M3 injectors? It seems like a natural progression if the specs are correct.

If you increase the output of the injectors then you have to remap it otherwise it will run very rich. I think you have mentioned Wayne for a live remap and this would 100% be the path I would choose. He will be able to advise you on the injectors, fit the injectors and map it perfectly to suit the injectors. Your new build is not a standard 3.2 and as soon as you start introducing multiple variables then IMHO any 'estimated' chip through the post is a compromise without much if any cost saving.

 

 

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11 hours ago, topcarrera said:

£1200 for new injectors - that seems ridiculous.  Search Five O Motorsport and you'll find matched new injectors for a fraction of that figure ........

Thanks Alex email already sent.

New injectors will only be an interim (if needed) step, the bigger issue is the ability or lack of to tune Motronics ECU.

From what I'm learning it's very cumbersome, has limited tunability and only WS of Chipwizards has the knowledge and tool to maximise what it can do.

A switch to a new ECU opens up a whole range of tuners, Injectors, etc etc.

I have another thread running on this . 

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Wayne mapped mine as a 3.4 - bigger injectors were not needed. Although mine were not standard, I don’t recall them flowing more than standard - they were just must cheaper but equivalent spec.

Lots of info on Pelican about alternate injectors - a chap called Scarceller is the go-to on this topic (offers his own map, Ford/Bosch injectors, MAF setup)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/888986-new-product-performance-chip-matched-injectors-3-2l-carrera.html

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5 hours ago, SP72 said:

Wayne mapped mine as a 3.4 - bigger injectors were not needed. Although mine were not standard, I don’t recall them flowing more than standard - they were just must cheaper but equivalent spec.

Which ones did you use?

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24 minutes ago, Beaky said:

Which ones did you use?

Bosch 0280150364 or 

Bosch 0280150360

I can't recall which, both deemed compatible as per the Teme's thread that Nige linked above

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https://www.rockauto.com/en/parts/acdelco,2172269,fuel+injector,6224

These are ACDelco equivalents to the Bosch 364 injectors - these are new not refurbed items.

I can recommend RockAuto too, have used several times for Lexus parts. If you choose Fedex shipping, they will calculate duty upfront, so no messing about when it arrives 

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2 hours ago, SP72 said:

That’ll be the last time i try and save you money :)

Shirish your efforts are much appreciated, but my misfire has returned and knowing it’s the injector I need a quick and known solution. Only 4 are available in the UK, 2 to follow on from Germany.

I read somewhere - probably on here, that Bosch now only guarantee their injectors for 80k miles. Since mine had done 130k, and I’ve renew most things it seemed silly not too. Secondly from the various pieces of information people have given, standard ones will easily cope with 250-260 bhp I hope to achieve.

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