Restoration Costs in England

[johndglynn]

Getting them in and then out again is the first real problem you will have. Coming in means they will have to have VAT paid unless you can get them on some sort of temp import which is usually related to a rally or similar. That means they will be time limited and I have never met anyone whose restoration was done on time, on schedule (or on budget). I think it's a non starter tbh.

I do know US citizens who have had cars restored here due to the cost and hassle of dealing with US restorers, but those cars were bought here and live here, at least for a time after restoration or build.

[Ryce]

Good informative, I was wondering about the VAT.

I believe the same car, say an SC is worth about $10K more on this side of the pond. Someone already pointed out that the EU would be the target market because of the steering wheel being on the wrong side for England.

[johndglynn]

LHD demand is higher in the EU and the VAT can be lower bringing it into NL. A better way to make money from this might be sourcing cars for EU sellers, helping to organise their shipping and just making a commission on top. 964 C2 Coupes are in low supply and worth looking at. Bear in mind that the market is slow at the minute.

[786]

964 C2 coupes are a pretty penny in the states too, no low hanging fruit here anymore.

[Ryce]

 Thank you Mr Singer?

I think my target car group might actually be the pre-galvanized (1977) cars. They have more rust and a higher market value when restored. 

Edited February 9, 2019 by Ryce

[786]

They certainly have some shells.  

But Porsche made a lot of 964s so the prices will fall eventually, probably as we hit our next recession (late 2019 or 1H 2020 I reckon). Cars are already sitting much longer and auction prices are starting to show a downward trend. Recall only a few years ago 964 C2s were around $20k and were known as sieves. 

[Mondrian]

On 2/9/2019 at 6:23 PM, 786 said:

But Porsche made a lot of 964s so the prices will fall eventually, ....

Compared to what?

3.2 = 35 000 ish

964 C2 = 18000 ish

993 C2 = 23000 ish (27000 ish including S variety)

JG did a good write up on his blog recently;

https://ferdinandmagazine.com/porsche-964-market-prices

 

[johndglynn]

On 2/9/2019 at 8:14 AM, Ryce said:

 

I think my target car group might actually be the pre-galvanized (1977) cars. They have more rust and a higher market value when restored. 

I would not necessarily go along with this theory but I look forward to watching you try to make money here. A lot of people have been down this road and there have been better markets. The path to restoration is a long one and there are bears in them woods.

[786]

7 hours ago, Mondrian said:

Compared to what?

3.2 = 35 000 ish

964 C2 = 18000 ish

993 C2 = 23000 ish (27000 ish including S variety)

JG did a good write up on his blog recently;

https://ferdinandmagazine.com/porsche-964-market-prices

 

Compared to anything collectible. For example, the 991.1 RS' value was very inflated for a time (I know several owners so went through the tribulations with them) and now are dropping fast or sitting unsold. They made 5,000 globally, that's not a collector grade number. They made more than the 997.1, 997.2 and RS 4.0 combined. If a GT car they made 5,000 of isn't collectible why would a standard model they made 18,000 of be?

I'm not a collector mind you, but looking at market values for many of the "special" cars of the last decade or two, production numbers needed to be in the 1XXX range or less to be really collectible & climb in value over time. There can always be bubbles for different marques or models, but they tend not to have staying power. Just my observation.

[johndglynn]

4 hours ago, 786 said:

Compared to anything collectible. For example, the 991.1 RS' value was very inflated for a time (I know several owners so went through the tribulations with them) and now are dropping fast or sitting unsold. They made 5,000 globally, that's not a collector grade number. They made more than the 997.1, 997.2 and RS 4.0 combined. If a GT car they made 5,000 of isn't collectible why would a standard model they made 18,000 of be?

I'm not a collector mind you, but looking at market values for many of the "special" cars of the last decade or two, production numbers needed to be in the 1XXX range or less to be really collectible & climb in value over time. There can always be bubbles for different marques or models, but they tend not to have staying power. Just my observation.

The market for £210k 911s in oversupply hasn't got very much to do with £55k 911s in low supply. There is demand for good air-cooled cars at the right price and they are not easy to find.

[786]

15 hours ago, johndglynn said:

The market for £210k 911s in oversupply hasn't got very much to do with £55k 911s in low supply. There is demand for good air-cooled cars at the right price and they are not easy to find.

The only way that makes sense is if the 964 supply has drastically reduced from the stated 18,000 production, and I mean drastically. Market for collectible things is ultimately dictated by supply of that thing. I was not saying the RS market was linked to the 964 market, was merely giving an example of how not collectible these things actually are, hype can go a long way.

[Mondrian]

2 hours ago, 786 said:

The only way that makes sense is if the 964 supply has drastically reduced from the stated 18,000 production, and I mean drastically. Market for collectible things is ultimately dictated by supply of that thing.

You're assuming that all 18,000 were mothballed as 964 was deemed a collector car even when they were a fraction of today's value and none were used, abused, clocked, tracked, molested, crashed, junked or driven into river over the past 30 years while comparing it to a car which is only 2/3 years old and most owners bought them with a view of selling down the line as an appreciating asset.

I think I have only come across a couple of collector quality 964 C2 coupe's (original everything, sub 50k, full history) for sale in UK over the past 5 years.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Mondrian

[angusb]

I think these figures belie fact , adding 964 and 993 production, in almost the same 7 years production period ,there were 10,000 fewer 3.2 Carrera`s made.

"Market for collectible things is ultimately dictated by supply of that thing."

The fundamental subjective problem about a 964, is its a 964,never as nice a 3.2, nor having 993 suspension..

 

[ras62]

964 / 993 production was 1989-98 so 9 years. In the context of local prices world production numbers are fairly meaningless. There was a reason Singer chose the 964 and my bet is that it wasn't because the 3.2 was "nicer" or that the 993 suspension is somehow better. 

[786]

4 hours ago, Mondrian said:

You're assuming that all 18,000 were mothballed as 964 was deemed a collector car even when they were a fraction of today's value and none were used, abused, clocked, tracked, molested, crashed, junked or driven into river over the past 30 years while comparing it to a car which is only 2/3 years old and most owners bought them with a view of selling down the line as an appreciating asset.

I think I have only come across a couple of collector quality 964 C2 coupe's (original everything, sub 50k, full history) for sale in UK over the past 5 years.

I'm not, please see my comment to John Glynn above yours.

[786]

Ultimately, I think prices for these cars are buoyed by drivers like you and me, not collectors. We are willing to pay for the experience and don't care as much about collectability, future values, etc.

[Jon Miller]

I think what John was getting at was that there are more buyers for 50k cars than 200k cars therefore the demand for those cars made in greater numbers still tends to exceed supply even though there were more made.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[786]

Ah, yes that is a fair point. But 18,000 is still a lot of cars. Wonder how many are left.

[Mondrian]

On 2/9/2019 at 6:23 PM, 786 said:

But Porsche made a lot of 964s 

 

On 2/11/2019 at 12:27 PM, Mondrian said:

Compared to what?

 

On 2/11/2019 at 8:37 PM, 786 said:

Compared to anything collectible.

 

18 hours ago, 786 said:

Market for collectible things is ultimately dictated by supply of that thing.

 

11 hours ago, 786 said:

Ultimately, I think prices for these cars are buoyed by drivers like you and me, not collectors.

You've lost me there, so does 964 fall into the collectibles category or enthusiast category?

[R2D2]

3 hours ago, Mondrian said:

 

 

 

 

You've lost me there, so does 964 fall into the collectibles category or enthusiast category?

They fall into the "they are not an IB" category 😁

Edited February 13, 2019 by R2D2

[johndglynn]

3 hours ago, Mondrian said:

You've lost me there, so does 964 fall into the collectibles category or enthusiast category?

I would give up on this one. I am looking for a 964 C2 for sale if you know of anything - RHD only 👍🏻

[Mondrian]

14 minutes ago, johndglynn said:

I would give up on this one.

Good idea

15 minutes ago, johndglynn said:

I am looking for a 964 C2 for sale if you know of anything - RHD only

Sorry I am all out.  Having gone through 3 x 964 C2's I decided my 89 IB is the one that appeals to my visceral & somatic senses the most.

[jevvy]

11 minutes ago, Mondrian said:

Having gone through 3 x 964 C2's I decided my 89 IB is the one that appeals to my visceral & somatic senses the most.

You need to do some more miles in a nice LHD one perhaps? Don't throw the 964 baby out with the RHD bathwater ;)

[Mondrian]

14 minutes ago, jevvy said:

You need to do some more miles in a nice LHD one perhaps? Don't throw the 964 baby out with the RHD bathwater

I had a LHD but never drove it (clue in the pic) and it was on the wrong side of the pond. I will take you up on your offer though, will it be ready in Spring?

 

[johndglynn]

That was a great car! LHD 964s very cool.