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Electric window problem


nrw34260

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Hi,

 

I have an 84 3.2 and just recently the windows will not work when the doors are closed but will work with the door open. I removed the wiring loom in the door and checked it for any breaks or shorts and it was fine. I traced it back to the pin switch on the door jamb. I could hear the relay clicking of the relay when operating the switch. I removed the dials and located the relay which is a standard all purpose round relay 911-615-109-01. I replaced it and still have the same problem. Does anyone have any ideas? Thank you.

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Sounds like it has to be in the wiring, they are prone to breakage after all those door open/shuts but sometimes it's difficult to spot if the plastic sheath is intact. 

That's where I'd look (again).

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1 hour ago, Chris T said:

Sounds like it has to be in the wiring, they are prone to breakage after all those door open/shuts but sometimes it's difficult to spot if the plastic sheath is intact. 

That's where I'd look (again).

I stripped back the plastic sheath and put a multimeter on all the wires and waggled them around. I got no connectivity readings on any of the other wires, but may have to look again.

1 minute ago, Chris T said:

It's also possible one of the spade connectors gets pulled off the back of the switch whenever the door is closed. I'd still check the wiring first though.

 

I m testing the switches with the cards off and the connections visible.

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I wouldn't expect a connection (short) to another wire, just a break in one at the exact spot it has flexed time and again. Further, if one has broken, the rest may not be far away.

 

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For safety, the windows only work when the doors are closed when the ignition is on - this means you can leave the kids in the car without them being able to play with the windows.  When the door is open the windows should work all the time.

I have a similar issue but mine is definitely a broken wire as the windows only work at all when the driver's door is open past a certain point, so can I ask how you stripped the harness out of the door?  I had a look at this but it looked like a door-off job.

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Disconnect battery...remove all connections from switches... bind all the connectors together with tape, trying to arrange them so there is not a big clump...attach a piece of thin wire or string... disconnect the 5 pin plug that sits up between the wing and the door... gently pull it through while feeding the switch end through the hole in the door...Voila. and you have the wire /string ready to pull it back...after you pull it back the plug is a bit awkward but you can hold the plug over the socket and press it down with a long screwdriver.

1 hour ago, 16vjay said:

For safety, the windows only work when the doors are closed when the ignition is on - this means you can leave the kids in the car without them being able to play with the windows.  When the door is open the windows should work all the time.

Mine have always worked with the door open or closed

 

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1 hour ago, Chris T said:

I wouldn't expect a connection (short) to another wire, just a break in one at the exact spot it has flexed time and again. Further, if one has broken, the rest may not be far away.

 

Using the multi meter and bending the wires about, I did not get any loss of connectivity in any of the wires. Very strange

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1 hour ago, nrw34260 said:

Disconnect battery...remove all connections from switches... bind all the connectors together with tape, trying to arrange them so there is not a big clump...attach a piece of thin wire or string... disconnect the 5 pin plug that sits up between the wing and the door... gently pull it through while feeding the switch end through the hole in the door...Voila. and you have the wire /string ready to pull it back...after you pull it back the plug is a bit awkward but you can hold the plug over the socket and press it down with a long screwdriver.

Mine have always worked with the door open or closed

 

 

Sorry, poor explanation, the windows work with the door open or closed, but with the door closed, the ignition has to be on for the windows to work.  When the door is open the windows are live all the time, even when the key is out of the ignition.

 

It's the getting the wires through the door that's stopping me, the wires and their grommets are in the thin part of the door in front of the hinge and body A post, barely visible and certaily out of reach for my fingers!

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7 hours ago, 16vjay said:

Sorry, poor explanation, the windows work with the door open or closed, but with the door closed, the ignition has to be on for the windows to work.  When the door is open the windows are live all the time, even when the key is out of the ignition.

 

It's the getting the wires through the door that's stopping me, the wires and their grommets are in the thin part of the door in front of the hinge and body A post, barely visible and certaily out of reach for my fingers!

Mine used to work open door open or closed. They stopped working while closed.

If you pull gently on the loom between the door and wing whist feeding it through from inside the door it should go through. My hands are like plates of meat and I can do it. I will take it out again and double check it. I will make a movie.

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OK, Clearly not in the door wiring.

Leaving both doors open and pressing one (drivers or passengers) of the courtesy light pins the windows work.

Closing drivers door but leaving passenger door open. The windows work..... This shows there is no broken wire in the loom.

Closing passenger door but leaving drivers door open. The windows work

Closing the drivers door and leaving the passenger door open BUT manually pressing the passenger light pin. The windows do NOT work.

It seems that the windows will not work when both light pins are depressed.

Any ideas.

 

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It sounds like you have a power supply issue, either feeding the window relay, or inside the relay itself.

The window relay has two live feeds, connection 30 is always live and connection 86 is from the ignition switch (live in position 1 & 2).

Live feed from 30 energises the relay when the door is open and from what you report it would seem that side of things is OK.

A live feed from 86 energises the relay when the doors are closed and the ignition is in position 1 or 2. This could be where your problem is if it is not the rely itself.

Under the dash there is a round rubber plug that takes connections from the ignition switch through the bulkhead, I would first check that is tight, then work through the connections between the ignition switch and connection 86 on the relay.

Mark

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58 minutes ago, SilverWT said:

It sounds like you have a power supply issue, either feeding the window relay, or inside the relay itself.

The window relay has two live feeds, connection 30 is always live and connection 86 is from the ignition switch (live in position 1 & 2).

Live feed from 30 energises the relay when the door is open and from what you report it would seem that side of things is OK.

A live feed from 86 energises the relay when the doors are closed and the ignition is in position 1 or 2. This could be where your problem is if it is not the rely itself.

Under the dash there is a round rubber plug that takes connections from the ignition switch through the bulkhead, I would first check that is tight, then work through the connections between the ignition switch and connection 86 on the relay.

Mark

Thanks. I have replaced the relay and still have the same problem. Will have a look at the wiring to the relay, alternatively I will disconnect the pin switches! :)

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Thinking some more bout this, the live feed to 30 will also supply the power to the window motors and as they work with the doors open it is probably not the cause.

My money would have been on the relay, but you have replaced that!

There are two ground connections on the relay, 85 which grounds in the front luggage compartment and 85B that grounds through the door light switches (which must work if the windows work with the doors open).

Check the ground connection for 85.

Mark

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On 2/22/2019 at 7:32 PM, SilverWT said:

Thinking some more bout this, the live feed to 30 will also supply the power to the window motors and as they work with the doors open it is probably not the cause.

My money would have been on the relay, but you have replaced that!

There are two ground connections on the relay, 85 which grounds in the front luggage compartment and 85B that grounds through the door light switches (which must work if the windows work with the doors open).

Check the ground connection for 85.

Mark

Thanks, will have a look this week

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On 2/22/2019 at 7:32 PM, SilverWT said:

Thinking some more bout this, the live feed to 30 will also supply the power to the window motors and as they work with the doors open it is probably not the cause.

My money would have been on the relay, but you have replaced that!

There are two ground connections on the relay, 85 which grounds in the front luggage compartment and 85B that grounds through the door light switches (which must work if the windows work with the doors open).

Check the ground connection for 85.

Mark

Hi Mark,

 

OK, The Relay has 30 - 85-86-87-87a.

 

I tested:

30 to earth and get 12v

Checked connectivity between 85 and the chassis / 86 and chassis / 87a and chassis ... and there is no connectivity

BUT!

between 30 and 85 I am getting 12v - Strange

ALSO

Between 87 & 85 12v

confused.com

 

It is impossible to get under the plug to check the wiring as the plug is set behind the speedo.

 

20190225_160618.thumb.jpg.149480cb9cd96205f126e7222e87ee91.jpg

 

 

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No idea why the numbers are different to the wiring diagrams.

I would expect you to find 12v connecting between 30 and 85, 85 is the earth and 30 is the live feed. You should therefore also find continuity between 85 and the chassis.

Rather than using the numbers, the wire colours can be used...

Red = always live feed

Red/Black = live when ignition is in positions 1 & 2

Brown = earth direct to chassis

Brown/White = earth via the door light switch

Black = feed from relay to the fuse No 1 in the front luggage compartment, the feed from this fuse to the door switch loom is Red/Blue

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1 minute ago, SilverWT said:

No idea why the numbers are different to the wiring diagrams.

I would expect you to find 12v connecting between 30 and 85, 85 is the earth and 30 is the live feed. You should therefore also find continuity between 85 and the chassis.

Rather than using the numbers, the wire colours can be used...

Red = always live feed

Red/Black = live when ignition is in positions 1 & 2

Brown = earth direct to chassis

Brown/White = earth via the door light switch

Black = feed from relay to the fuse No 1 in the front luggage compartment, the feed from this fuse to the door switch loom is Red/Blue

Very confusing. My car is an 84, on the 84 schematic the door contacts are not connected to the relay, it changed on the 85. The plug is in the bulkhead behind the speedo. The wiring is covered and there is no access unless I do some serious dismantling .

The door contact switches  on the 84 are connected to the clock relay according to the schematic.I cannot find that.

Just checking though the schematics and noticed that the electric seats (Retro Fitted) are going to Fuse 1 in Fuse Box 1 as well, so wondering if that might have something to do with it?

.1655530276_84Windowwiring.jpg.57954ec49868603c7dd553ddce2ccd8c.jpg265263883_85Windows.jpg.0ee659a39a707063bd4aae8391c7bcf5.jpg508658656_Screenshot2019-02-2520_17_12.png.f87b8207840c2f715baf2bd240ad1ef4.png1054717661_Screenshot2019-02-2522_01_17.png.716dd1b1b0702b7bb8b4f3c384810d4e.png

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On 2/26/2019 at 10:16 AM, SilverWT said:

The change in wiring, at least for UK cars, was the determined by the change from SC to 3.2. Use the '85 wiring diagram.

Hi, As it was one of the first 3.2s (1/6/84) it looks like it is wired as the SC. There are only 3 wires going to the Relay20190228_112302.thumb.jpg.469e69e799d5dab6468a14f07e3ccf85.jpg20190228_112455.thumb.jpg.55560fd4c34356b03c374d8cbe46500b.jpg

 

Pin 87 : Black  - Going to Fuse 1

Pin 30 : Red/Black - Hot at all times

Pin 85 : Brown - Earth

Pin 86 : is connected to 30 inside the plug and is hot at all times

I have tried to follow the wires from the door pin switches but they are taped up with a load of other wire behind the instruments, according to the schematic it should be going to the Clock Relay but cannot see that.

As soon as both door pins are closed the relay clicks and windows do not work. If one door is open, there is no problem.

I am getting to the point where I might wire the door pins so they are always on and turn off the interior light!

 

1475544414_84Windowwiring.jpg.3926315ef48e727f88b3b31fa08d764f.jpg1622711469_Screenshot2019-02-2522_01_17.png.0402278a454e8e6f17498a0b3e50aeef.png

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3 hours ago, nrw34260 said:

Pin 87 : Black  - Going to Fuse 1 OK

Pin 30 : Red/Black - Hot at all times OK

Pin 85 : Brown - Earth OK

Pin 86 : is connected to 30 inside the plug and is hot at all times This should be feed from the ignition switch, only live when ignition is in position 1 & 2 

It's not even connected as an SC, someones been messing with things.

 

3 hours ago, nrw34260 said:

As soon as both door pins are closed the relay clicks and windows do not work. If one door is open, there is no problem.

Not sure why the bodge of feeding pin 86 with an alternate live is not working, unless 85 has been connected to the door switches rather than the direct chassis earth.

Try earthing 85 direct to the chassis and then see if they work with the doors closed.

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1 minute ago, SilverWT said:

It's not even connected as an SC, someones been messing with things.

 

Not sure why the bodge of feeding pin 86 with an alternate live is not working, unless 85 has been connected to the door switches rather than the direct chassis earth.

Try earthing 85 direct to the chassis and then see if they work with the doors closed.

OK, Scrub the last post of mine. I made an error tracing the wires as I am trying to do it by feel behind the Instrument panel

Pin 85 : Brown wire goes to the door switch - should be earthed to body

So Basically the only time the Relay is earthed is when the door is open

Pin 87 : Black  - Going to Fuse 1

Pin 30 : Red/Black - Hot at all times

Pin 86 : is connected to 30 inside the plug and is hot at all times

I am really confused now as there are only 4 pins in the plug with connections.

Pin 85b has no pin in the plug and that is where the interior light switch should be connected

I have removed the fuse from Fuse 1 / Fuse Panel 2 which controls the interior lights and the windows now work with the door open or closed

 

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2 minutes ago, nrw34260 said:

I am really confused now as there are only 4 pins in the plug with connections.

Pin 85b has no pin in the plug and that is where the interior light switch should be connected

As I said, someone has been messing with things in the past, so no point in trying to understand/rationalise things. Porsche connected the power windows to work only when the ignition was in position 1 & 2 when the doors were closed for safety reasons (to stop kids left in the car operating the windows), on both the SC and 3.2. 

Personally, I would try moving the earth currently that is on 85 to 85b and then adding a direct chassis earth to 85.

Mark

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