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MarkJ

Bore scoring?

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Asking on behalf of a mate who’s put a deposit on a 997 3.8 c4. As part of the deal seller/dealer agreed to a bore scope. These are the pics, number 3 looked like scouring to me but know some of you guys are clever metal engineer types. Feedback appreciated :)

 

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Agreed, looks suspicious.  But not as bad as some I have seen.  I don't profess to have any expertise though.

You really want someone who has seen lots of them to give a view.  If your mate has a friendly indie or wants to start a relationship with a local indie, then that is where I would go.  For me, I would be asking Steve Winter at JAZ, because he has looked after me and my cars for nearly 20 years, but each will have a local/favourite.

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You really need much better quality borescope images than those to make a judgement. Having said that....  I'd say there's enough there to be concerned and warrant further investigation - particularly if the other bores don't look like that. Has he got images from the other cylinders for comparison ?

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that's all the 'specialist/dealer' sent him. Think he's getting jittery about buying it now. Even to my untrained eye the third photo looked a bit rough, but who normally gets to see inside these engines other than at rebuild time. They might all look like that after a few years running. 

They've offered a 12k mile warranty on it but I said to him, what happens when he wants to sell it on in a couple of years, it'll be him having to stump up for bore scoping for another prospective buyer with the same concerns and any dealer/buyer will probably knock him several k to 'cover their concerns' despite hogwashing it to sell it to him in the first place!  its not even being offered for any great deal pricewise.

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I don't have enough 'engine wear' knowledge to comment on the pictures but if it doesn't feel right then it's probably not the right car for your friend

Why not post a thread up over on the Pelican Parts engine forum

 

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I agree except the idiot let his wife pressure him into a 2k deposit before he had the inspection done :rolleyes: think they both got goo-goo eyed at prospect of first Porsche...easily done.

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I note the use of “specialist” dealer..don’t tell me the car’s in Yorkshire ? 

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no its a southern dealer. All sharks in suits wherever you buy it seems. Be interesting to see how it pans out now he's asked for his deposit back being that reputations can be easily highlighted/denegrated online these days.

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On 11/29/2019 at 12:49 PM, MarkJ said:

They've offered a 12k mile warranty on it but I said to him, what happens when he wants to sell it on in a couple of years, it'll be him having to stump up for bore scoping for another prospective buyer with the same concerns and any dealer/buyer will probably knock him several k to 'cover their concerns' despite hogwashing it to sell it to him in the first place!  its not even being offered for any great deal pricewise.

As you say - doesn't make sense to buy a car at average price with a suspicion that there's something wrong and then to rely on a warranty to make things good. Some of those warranties aren't worth the paper they're printed on with terms like caps on claim values, no cover for pre-existing faults and not covering component degradation, only failure. Why take the risk - I can't see an upside?

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I think it needs to be remembered that very few people are going to ask for a borescope let alone even know what one is when they buy a car. Certainly wouldn't have occured to me. What made your mate ask for one?

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On 11/28/2019 at 3:49 PM, MarkJ said:

Asking on behalf of a mate who’s put a deposit on a 997 3.8 c4. As part of the deal seller/dealer agreed to a bore scope. These are the pics, number 3 looked like scouring to me but know some of you guys are clever metal engineer types. Feedback appreciated :)

What year, gen 1 or 2, believe 1's are much more susceptible to the dreaded BS, I'd just walk away, there's plenty of 997's for sale.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Phill said:

I think it needs to be remembered that very few people are going to ask for a borescope let alone even know what one is when they buy a car. Certainly wouldn't have occured to me. What made your mate ask for one?

Anyone reasonably following the Porsche scene would be aware of ims or bore scoring I’d have thought? Enough about it in every Porsche mag and forum over the years for pre 07 modern pork. I think they did the heart over head thing (or got talked into it by an oily salesman) and put a deposit down. The sales place is now telling him he can’t have his deposit back so he’s waiting to speak to their boss tomorrow. 

@Beaky, it’s a gen1 997 3.8 

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Does the warranty have to have an actual failure to be used? If the car was taken to a specialist after purchase and the bore scoring was an issue would it not be covered? The argument would surely be between the selling garage and the warranty company as to whether it was an existing fault!

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not sure, but i'd be same frame of mind as Beaky, plenty to choose from, so unless they offered it on a too tempting deal, why would you risk it?  But I also think the bore-score and IMS issue has been blown out of proportion over the years via the good old web and by specialists out to make a tasty wedge out of owners fears. 

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Agree fully on the IMS issue at least - when I was looking for a Boxster S gen 1 I talked to many specialists who had never seen an IMS failure or knew of one after very early 986's.

Stories to tell the kids to give them nightmares?

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My brother did have a 3.2 Boxster and now has a 997 gen 1. 

The 3.2 did have a leaky IMS which was replaced with some ceramic do-dah - I don't know the full details. The 997 gen 1 had bore score which actually revealed itself by one exhaust sooting up as the bore scoring usually effects the same specific bore/bores IIRC - I can find out if anyone needs to know. The 997 ended up having the Hartech work-over with Nikasil sleeves etc which, all in, cost nigh on £18k in the end. You really need to tread carefully to make sure you get a good one following a proper inspection - same as any Porsche really! 

 

Edited by R2D2
spelling!

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Bit of Russian roulette the whole IMS, RMS, bore scoring thing with early 997's. It'll probably not be you. But if it is, it's gonna hurt. Does that about sum it up? Go Gen 2 for a few more quid and play it safer I guess (but it'll cost ya!). 

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just heard from mate, he got a full refund thankfully.  Think the boss probably thought it wasn't worth tarnishing their image over a couple of K deposit, unlike his lying salesman who had said to 3 witnesses that if anything wasn't as hoped for they'd get a full refund then renaged on it when the bore-scope came back. :rolleyes:

Thanks for replies chaps, happy ending at least :)

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My brother in law bought a Gen1 997 S with known bore scoring and the price was factored accordingly, by £8k actually.  The job cost a bit more due to whilst you’re in there stuff but he is happy as he has a Hartech rebuild which underpins its value

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That seems like a good way to buy.  I don't think I have ever seen a car advertised with known bore scoring, but then I suppose its all kept hush hush if at all possible.

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With the cost of a hartech rebuild in mind, the price of a 2005 997 without a rebuilt is dramatically low realistically. Maybe 10/12k? How much are they worth with rebuilt engines? That minus the cost of the rebuild? 

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5 hours ago, Busybee said:

With the cost of a hartech rebuild in mind, the price of a 2005 997 without a rebuilt is dramatically low realistically. Maybe 10/12k? How much are they worth with rebuilt engines? That minus the cost of the rebuild? 

that's what I told my mate, who'd pay over 30k for a gen1 nowadays? with the prospect of an 18k Hartech rebuild required at some point (allegedly!) surely unless its proven not to have the issue or has been already remedied, then the car should be bargain priced pork. Sad fact as that is.

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I paid £13k for my Gen1 997. No symptoms of bore scoring but who knows what lurks beneath. But, at £13k, if I need a rebuild in a few years time, I will be neither surprised nor disappointed.

It’s high mileage - 110k. Some say that, at that mileage, if there was going to be a problem, it would have happened already.

With a Gen 1 997, buy them cheap and be prepared to spend or get proof that all is well. Then it’s a good ownership proposition.


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14 hours ago, Planty said:

I paid £13k for my Gen1 997. No symptoms of bore scoring but who knows what lurks beneath. But, at £13k, if I need a rebuild in a few years time, I will be neither surprised nor disappointed.

It’s high mileage - 110k. Some say that, at that mileage, if there was going to be a problem, it would have happened already.

With a Gen 1 997, buy them cheap and be prepared to spend or get proof that all is well. Then it’s a good ownership proposition.


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That’s a good buy. I never see them that cheap. All above 20k. Add in the risk factor and cost to repair and it then makes the gen 2 not too far off. At 10 or 13k, gen 1 cars become much more attractive. 

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