3.8-litre engine transplant options

[Busybee]

I've bought Axle's 3.8. Thanks for outing me Axle 😜

I'm waiting on the engine to arrive but thought I'd do a brain purge with the options and thoughts so far. 

a) Engine transplant into Daisy and Daisy's engine gets sold or put into my 912 project car (must be going for a record on the least progressed project on IB here)

b) 3.8 goes straight into the 912 project and leave Daisy alone (I do love the work RB has done on that car. It's a screamer and its ballsy)

c) I hang onto the 3.8 and do nothing for a while (highly unlikely as I can feel the itch to hear it already)

d) I make Axle really upset and flog on the 3.8 in a few months for some profiteering dosh (😂 sorry Axle)

The dilemma is I really love Daisy as she is. She needs her neck wringing to shift but then she shifts incredibly well. Sounds amazing (if you like loud shouty cars) and is just so much fun to drive.

Sorry, I know its very much a first world problem but I guess we all have those on here. 

Ok so assuming I go a or b (lets face it, c and d are a pretty unlikely), I need to get myself in place to do the transplant. I think she'll likely go into Daisy - G50 gearbox, uprated everything inc brakes, suspension, provision for a central front mounted oil cooler if I want/need one and lets be honest, more is good right! There you go, talked myself into option (a) and hang on to RB's 3.2 to go in the 912 or just to cuddle sometimes. 265hp (wayne's dyno 3.2 with circa 30k miles has to be worth a good few quid I'd say). If I don't like the transplant for some inexplicable reason, back in she goes! A bit of self therapy, choice justification going on here. 

So reading the links Mark, Alex and Rob have posted in the ad thread (thanks guys), Jevvy's lists look key. 

Conversion parts

• Clutch/flywheel (depends on engine/gearbox) - TICK (I hope as RB tells me I have a 930 clutch in the old girl but might need a new one I guess? )
• Oil lines (same as SSI + 1 extra pipe)  - Have a TT system at the moment with headers so I'm guessing I just need the extra pipe
• Fuel lines - Anyone shed light on what fuel lines I'm going to need?
• Wiring harness adapter/DIY conversion - I might need an adapter to fit the supplied loom onto my G body?
• Exhaust (depends on engine/requirements) - TICK comes with an exhaust with a happy crab magnaflow muffler and cats (well, the Americans 🙄)
• Oil filter(s) - Guessing I just need a 964 filter (is it the same as a G body filter as have lots?)
• Fuel Filter - Got a pile of these from David
• Spacers (depends on which 3.6 lump you get) - Erm, where do they go, what do they look like and where do I get em?
• Air filer (probably a cone as the 3.6 airbox doesn’t fit easily with IB hinges) - Guessing a cone like the one on my current maf upgrade engine a la RB? 
• Tin mods - Yup, need that I guess (unless Alex popped these in my crate)
• G50 Gearbox bell housing shortening - Is this required, what is it and how is it done? 
• Throttle Cable - Read elsewhere that a patrick motorsport cable is a good thing to replace and needed in the conversion?
• Engine Support Bar - Read about this being bent or replaced. Details?

Missed anything? 

Long old post. Sorry.

Haith

[ALEX P]

I think I read in your other thread that Timmins build your engine and he offers conversion kits with all of the bits you need. I would start off speaking to him.

Your alternative for 3.6 conversion parts is Patrick Motorsports (also in the US). Not much to choose between them but Timmins is/was slightly cheaper.

I like the idea of putting the big engine in the 912 but I don't think you will end up doing this. 915's life expentantcy is reduced with the additional torque that 3.8's deliver, RB's old car is finished, has the much stronger G50 which 'should' slot straight in and would take you a fraction of the time to get on the road so I fully expect you to take this route.

WRT your list you don't need oil lines, fuel lines come in the Timmins kit, harness comes in the kit, didn't the engine you bought come with an exhaust? Oil filter remains the same on a 964 engine (you are not changing your oil tank). Spacers are to lower the engine at the back if you don't have enough clearance to the firewall. G50 is fine, you should only need to shorten bellhousing if fitting a G50 into a 915 chassis. Mod to engine support bar will come with your instructions from Timmins who provides an entire how to guide.

Congrats, you now have false t1ts

[World Citizen]

BB, nice problem to have, this would be my approach 

Leave Daisy alone, use her as she is now for the mountain tour and more local road trips, there’s your benchmark for measuring fun vs fear. Another reason is there is no way you'll do the conversion and dial out all the niggles in 4 months so much less chance of spoiling an epic IB trip with a unfixable breakdown

After the trip take your time to put the 3.8 into Daisy so everything is spot on, repeat local roads and another mountain tour

Then ask yourself ‘is Daisy more fun or less fun?’ 🤔

If Daisy is more fun, happy days, enjoy her and stick the 3.2 in the 912

If Daisy is less fun but you are not afraid of her then uprate Daisy’s brakes/suspension, if you are really afraid move on the 3.8 and refit the 3.2

Edited February 6, 2020 by World Citizen

[Busybee]

Not sure if the full Instant G conversion kit is included in with the engine Alex. Axle said I get the loom, ECU, full exhaust, 964 plastic intake, 993 varioram intake. Oh and the engine with 1-2% leak down numbers (which I'm guessing are good right?). I'm thinking keep it simple and leave the 964 intake on it. Besides that I'm just itching to see it and find out what's in the box. Falsies! woohooo! 🧁🧁

Cheers Stephen. Sounds like top advice as always. I think that's what I'll do. No rush on it right and the 3.2 in RB's car could do with a good run for some mountain air. Plus she's going to oulton early March. I don't really want her off the road this summer either as I sneak out often in the warmer months to keep the bacon industry afloat in Wales and I'm pretty much a fixture at Bicester. 😂 I'd never thought she might scare me with a big lump at the back. Be fun to find out right 👍

[ras62]

Much of the character of the 3.8 in Daisy will be determined by your choice of flywheel as I dont think your original will work. The RS single mass unit will give much more ungency in how the motor gains and loses revs where the dual mass setup is smoother, much quieter but less urgent in its responce. I doubt the latter would suit Daisy tbh. An MPL slave cylinder on the clutch is a nice mod as it lightens the pedal pressure quite a bit.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/575942-flywheel-clutch-kit.html 

[GaryH]

2 hours ago, Busybee said:

😜d)  I make Axle really upset 

More upset than repeatedly getting his name wrong ?

[Busybee]

There's always one 

[jevvy]

2 hours ago, Busybee said:

• Clutch/flywheel (depends on engine/gearbox) - TICK (I hope as RB tells me I have a 930 clutch in the old girl but might need a new one I guess? ) Re-use the clutch, what flywheel is currently fitted to the red car?
• Oil lines (same as SSI + 1 extra pipe)  - Have a TT system at the moment with headers so I'm guessing I just need the extra pipe
• Fuel lines - Anyone shed light on what fuel lines I'm going to need? If you buy the kit you will be supplied these, if you DIY all the fittings are available to buy so once the engine is fitted you can measure up and get some made locally - dead easy!
• Wiring harness adapter/DIY conversion - I might need an adapter to fit the supplied loom onto my G body? Buy or make an adaptor loom, fun to DIY but easier to just buy one
• Exhaust (depends on engine/requirements) - TICK comes with an exhaust with a happy crab magnaflow muffler and cats (well, the Americans 🙄) Sounds perfect, you might want to swap the cats for a straight through pipe or small muffler of sorts as you will not need the cats for emissions and they will be restrictive. What headers are with it? Can you use 993 headers and straight into the happy crab? Thats whats on babs 964 which you have heard.
• Oil filter(s) - Guessing I just need a 964 filter (is it the same as a G body filter as have lots?) Same as an IB filter
• Fuel Filter - Got a pile of these from David As above, no change from IB land
• Spacers (depends on which 3.6 lump you get) - Erm, where do they go, what do they look like and where do I get em? Just a small (1-2cm) spacer to go between the engine support bar and the engine mounts in the car. You can either get some ahead of time or fit the engine and get it to the height you want and measure the gap between the engine carrier and the engine mounts and get some made up or order from someone like this. What engine mounts do you have?
• Air filer (probably a cone as the 3.6 airbox doesn’t fit easily with IB hinges) - Guessing a cone like the one on my current maf upgrade engine a la RB? Yup, should be fine.
• Tin mods - Yup, need that I guess (unless Alex popped these in my crate) Depending on whats already been done you will need to blank off the area where the power steering pump is/was and some small tweaks to get it to seal around the front edges - not much work and easier to do once you have things lined up rather than guessing and doing it wrong.
• G50 Gearbox bell housing shortening - Is this required, what is it and how is it done? You can do this if you would prefer to sit the engine 1 inch further back and bend the mount bar like most do, tbh for the first instal I would just leave the bell housing and bend the bar.
• Throttle Cable - Read elsewhere that a patrick motorsport cable is a good thing to replace and needed in the conversion? 993/964 throttle cable conversion is the way to go, more hassle but way better solution than modifying the throttle bell crank on the side of the gearbox. That said with the 993 intake already installed you might be ready to just hook-her-up in which case go maybe try that first. Just make sure you are getting WOT at the throttle when you are pinning the pedal to the stop.
• Engine Support Bar - Read about this being bent or replaced. Details? Bend-it like Beckham

Exciting times buddy - pleased for you.

Answers in bold - you have my number if you need any help

3 minutes ago, ras62 said:

The RS single mass unit will give much more ungency in how the motor gains and loses revs

RS flywheel is great and does speed the revs up a bit but only in the lower few gears, once in third the resistance of the road / gearing takes over. You will need to nail your heel and toe downshifts though

[jevvy]

Looks like it already has a power steering delete blacking plug, cant see any tinware though. Porsche Tinware is horrible price so maybe get some carbon fibre stuff off Richard H.

Look like home-brew headers, no idea what they will be like. Dont look as low profile as 993 headers so you may experience some ground clearance issues on a low car. Pipes look phat - maybe too fat?

Looks like it comes with cats and cat delete pipes (4 x J shaped pipes at the top) which gives you options. That solver T pipe in the middle at the bottom looks like its a heater pipe adaptor for underneath the engine tinware - I think you might want to make something a little more elegant than that. 

Make sure you remove the oil pipe that goes under the back of the engine and up to the right before you fit your headers otherwise you wont be able to get at it - you replace this pipe with the SSI oil line (with a slight bend added to the middle).

HTH?

[ras62]

Hope it comes with the alternator and fan assembly?

[sopor]

First things first - it's Axel!!!!

[SP72]

The h/ex are made by REEF at Bicester Heritage - £3k+ iirc 

[Bobafett]

@Busybee you must have a very understanding other half 😂 

 

I would love to upgrade on my stock 3.2 but runs sweet and will leave alone until after the Alps trip! 👍

[GaryH]

2 hours ago, Busybee said:

There's always one 

1 hour ago, sopor said:

First things first - it's Axel!!!!

 

Apparently at least two. 

[Busybee]

2 hours ago, jevvy said:

Exciting times buddy - pleased for you.

Answers in bold - you have my number if you need any help

RS flywheel is great and does speed the revs up a bit but only in the lower few gears, once in third the resistance of the road / gearing takes over. You will need to nail your heel and toe downshifts though

Thanks Jevvy. You sure you don't fancy a weekend in Wales some time?  

Not sure what flywheel is in there at the moment. Bet @Richard Bernau knows. 

Poly engine mounts in Daisy

Who's Richard H for the tinware if I need it?

1 hour ago, ras62 said:

Hope it comes with the alternator and fan assembly?

Nope unfortunately not. Anyone got a 964 alternator and fan/shroud? @David Gander - bet you've got one brand new in a box in your stash?   

1 hour ago, sopor said:

First things first - it's Axel!!!!

Yeah yeah no 2

1 hour ago, SP72 said:

The h/ex are made by REEF at Bicester Heritage - £3k+ iirc 

😲 only paid 4k for the engine! 😂 Are they of stupendous quality SP?

1 hour ago, Bobafett said:

@Busybee you must have a very understanding other half 😂 

I would love to upgrade on my stock 3.2 but runs sweet and will leave alone until after the Alps trip! 👍

She just likes to get rid of me out the garage 😁. You're not doing bad yourself Tony these last couple of weeks

48 minutes ago, GaryH said:

Apparently at least two. 

Touche Gary

[David Gander]

No Haith...sorry!
D.

[SP72]

If it is REEF, it should be top quality.  I can’t believe Axel can’t recall whether he spent 3k+ with him or not  

https://m.facebook.com/Ryan-Edwards-Exhaust-Fabrication-Ltd-824591494257332/photos/?ref=page_internal&mt_nav=0

 

[Richard Bernau]

You need to look at what you have before you do anything else.  You don't have to do everything you would normally do to go 3.2 to 3.6.

More info later.  I saw one Q re flywheel - its std 3.2 with LW pressure plate and 930SE clutch.

[Jonny Hart]

If you want the best alternator for the 964/993, we have 240A(!) units in stock.  I’ve got a restored fan and fan housing too. 

[Busybee]

1 hour ago, David Gander said:

No Haith...sorry!
D.

Thanks David. Bit of a punt 👍

48 minutes ago, SP72 said:

If it is REEF, it should be top quality.  I can’t believe Axel can’t recall whether he spent 3k+ with him or not  

https://m.facebook.com/Ryan-Edwards-Exhaust-Fabrication-Ltd-824591494257332/photos/?ref=page_internal&mt_nav=0

Will hopefully find out tomorrow all being well. Their work looks exceptional 👍

24 minutes ago, Richard Bernau said:

You need to look at what you have before you do anything else.  You don't have to do everything you would normally do to go 3.2 to 3.6.

More info later.  I saw one Q re flywheel - its std 3.2 with LW pressure plate and 930SE clutch.

Thanks Richard. 

21 minutes ago, Jonny Hart said:

If you want the best alternator for the 964/993, we have 240A(!) units in stock.  I’ve got a restored fan and fan housing too. 

Cheers Jonny. Do I need such a high output alternator in a car like mine? Have very few electrical comfort systems. Interested in the whole lot (but maybe a lower output alternator). 

[Jonny Hart]

Just now, Busybee said:

Thanks David. Bit of a punt 👍

Will hopefully find out tomorrow all being well. Their work looks exceptional 👍

Thanks Richard. 

Cheers Jonny. Do I need such a high output alternator in a car like mine? Have very few electrical comfort systems. Interested in the whole lot (but maybe a lower output alternator). 

Do you really need a higher output engine?    😂

[Busybee]

Just now, Jonny Hart said:

Do you really need a higher output engine?    😂

Won’t hurt will it 😜

[Richard Bernau]

My unfinished thoughts above were that you don't have to do everything on the list as you already have a tall intake which means the rear cross member is already spaced down.  You already have poly engine and gearbox mounts.  The tinware is over rated.  Honestly not sure I would bother with it if it costs and arm and a leg.  The turbo had none.  You are also already on a cable throttle from the gearbox pivot to the TB.

Have a close look at what you have before buying anything.  Its not average 3.2 stuff.

You need more oil cooling with a 3.8.  Centre mount and the under body ducting meaning purchasing the panel and cut and weld it in.

25 minutes ago, Jonny Hart said:

Do you really need a higher output engine?    😂

No.  Not on the road.  Some may remember I was the only one who "raced" the Gallardo on the Belgium motorway on the Slovenia trip and managed to stick on his back bumper up to fairly high speed.   I could keep up with the dutch race cars in that car and they are the quickest guys I have even been on a trip with and it was as quick up a mountain as Gordon in the 997TT.  He would claim he only ever used 4th gear...

I have said before that gearing would have been my next focus for development.

Still, everyone loves more horsepower.

[ALEX P]

7 hours ago, Busybee said:

Not sure if the full Instant G conversion kit is included in with the engine Alex.

I didn't mean that the kit was supplied with the engine. I meant bits that you will need on top!

As far as the adaptor loom goes, just buy it, making it is a ball ache you don't need. BTDT.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/554815-3-2-3-6-wiring-harness-dme-advice.html

3 hours ago, Busybee said:

Thanks Jevvy. You sure you don't fancy a weekend in Wales some time?  

Who's Richard H for the tinware if I need it?

Think Jev means Roger H (Harrodine). He makes good quality FG tinwear that a number of us are running.

FWIW, if you're not going to do it yourself then you should have a good think about tapping Jevvy up to do the conversion for you if he's available.

[Busybee]

21 minutes ago, Richard Bernau said:

My unfinished thoughts above were that you don't have to do everything on the list as you already have a tall intake which means the rear cross member is already spaced down.  You already have poly engine and gearbox mounts.  The tinware is over rated.  Honestly not sure I would bother with it if it costs and arm and a leg.  The turbo had none.  You are also already on a cable throttle from the gearbox pivot to the TB.

Have a close look at what you have before buying anything.  Its not average 3.2 stuff.

You need more oil cooling with a 3.8.  Centre mount and the under body ducting meaning purchasing the panel and cut and weld it in.

No.  Not on the road.  Some may remember I was the only one who "raced" the Gallardo on the Belgium motorway on the Slovenia trip and managed to stick on his back bumper up to fairly high speed.   I could keep up with the dutch race cars in that car and they are the quickest guys I have even been on a trip with and it was as quick up a mountain as Gordon in the 997TT.  He would claim he only ever used 4th gear...

I have said before that gearing would have been my next focus for development.

Still, everyone loves more horsepower.

Thanks again Richard. You might have got round that Gallardo with a 3.8 😜 I’ll just see if I like it. If not, back to screaming 3.2 heaven I go 👍

21 minutes ago, ALEX P said:

I didn't mean that the kit was supplied with the engine. I meant bits that you will need on top!

As far as the adaptor loom goes, just buy it, making it is a ball ache you don't need. BTDT.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/554815-3-2-3-6-wiring-harness-dme-advice.html

Think Jev means Roger H (Harrodine). He makes good quality FG tinwear that a number of us are running.

FWIW, if you're not going to do it yourself then you should have a good think about tapping Jevvy up to do the conversion for you if he's available.

I know. I meant I think a few bits are already included with the engine. Will find out very soon. Thanks regarding Roger Harrodine. Would love Jevvy to get involved. Be like nikkei san turning up with his self tappers and caulking gun lol. Wonder what Jevvy would turn up with. Heway man 😂