Unfriendly petrol

[SurlySurdi]

A more eco-friendly petrol could be introduced to garages in the UK from next year. 

The government is consulting on making E10 - which contains less carbon and more ethanol than fuels currently on sale - the new standard petrol grade.

The move could cut CO2 emissions from transport by 750,000 tonnes per year, the Department for Transport said.

However, the lower carbon fuel would not be compatible with some older vehicles. 

Current petrol grades in the UK - known as E5 - contain up to 5% bioethanol. 

E10 would see this percentage increased up to 10% - a proportion that would bring the UK in line with countries such as Belgium, Finland, France and Germany.
 

Just read the above on the BBC’s website. (I always use shell V power - minimal ethanol content), how this will impact ‘older vehicles’ will be interesting as I believe this is the thin end of the wedge.

[MarkJ]

so will the government pay for all us classic car owners to have the necessary fuel system upgrades to cope with this bio-crap?....thought not. 

[Chris_911]

One of the reasons why I'm refreshing my fuel lines...

[Nige]

Are your new fuel lines compatible Chris?

[Dr Rock]

Remember what happens...

[Nige]

I remember, but are new lines up to spec as surely that potential old stock?  Or are they manufactured from modern materials that are suitable for e10 fuels?

[Beaky]

If it happens it will slowly be phased in, in France you can still buy both E5 and E10 fuel.

I'm sure there a plenty of classic owners in Euro that now face this challenge, so over time more affordable "upgrade" options will materialize.

7 minutes ago, Nige said:

I remember, but are new lines up to spec as surely that potential old stock?  Or are they manufactured from modern materials that are suitable for e10 fuels?

This could be a minefield, I do know that my new family hack (Suzuki Vitara) is E10 compliant (says on the tin, actually inside the petrol cap flap) so the materials and tech are available. 

 

[SurlySurdi]

My understanding is that E10 can lead to damaged seals, plastics and metals due to it's high water content.

In addition to this fuel lines may corrode faster leading to particles in the fuel filter and fuel leaks.

Back in 2018 Footman James published an article quoting estimated Department for Transport costs for converting a car to be able to use E10, it was between £236 and £1,342. (https://www.footmanjames.co.uk/blog/e10-petrol-threat-for-classic-cars)

I think it will go one of two ways:

1. We convert our cars to use E10
2. Higher ('super') grades of fuel will still be available for some time until it isn't (see point 1)

All that being said, I came across an article about E10 being safe in ALL vehicles! (https://www.euractiv.com/section/agriculture-food/opinion/e10-safe-in-all-petrol-cars/)

Admittedly this was written by a chap with a vested interest in biofuels BUT he makes some points worth considering. The gist of the article is that for the last 2 decades E10 is the standard fuel sold in the US and they have not had one single case concerning the usage of E10 fuel. The article states that BMW and VW have confirmed all their cars no matter how old are OK with E10.

[Roy M]

From Porsche (via old 911uk link)

Compatibility of E10 fuel with Porsche vintage cars and recent classics
Verify your classic car‘s compatibility of E10 fuel with the help of our overview

E10 is a fuel which contains a higher proportion of ethanol than previous petrol formulations. The “E” stands for ethanol. The number “10” indicates that the fuel contains up to 10% ethanol. Previously the proportion of ethanol in petrol was up to 5%.

E10 fuels are suitable for refuelling and thus for running all Porsche vehicles as of year of construction 1996. Specifically, the Boxster (model year 1997) and Carrera (model year 1998) models onwards.

These new fuels, which can include up to 10% ethanol in the future in accordance with new statutory regulations, can be used in all new Porsche vehicles without any problems.

The fuel types Regular E10 (91 RON) and Unleaded E10 (95 RON) are not suitable for use in the following Porsche vehicle types:

Type Year of construction
356 1950-65
911 1965-89
912 1965-69; 1976
964 1989-94
993 1994-98
959 1988-89
914 1970-77
924 1976-88
944 1981-91
968 1991-95
928 1977-95

These Porsche vehicles may not be run on E10 fuel. As an alternative, Super unleaded (98 RON) can be used. With a maximum bioethanol content of 5% (E5 fuel), Super unleaded is compatible with these vehicles

[Beaky]

Reading the above, it would appear we are Ok until the 98+ Ron fuels are no longer available E5.

14 minutes ago, SurlySurdi said:

The gist of the article is that for the last 2 decades E10 is the standard fuel sold in the US and they have not had one single case concerning the usage of E10 fuel. 

Is this fact or fiction?, 

[SurlySurdi]

4 minutes ago, Beaky said:

Reading the above, it would appear we are Ok until the 98+ Ron fuels are no longer available E5.

Is this fact or fiction?, 

I'm not sure I'm still trying to verify this.

15 minutes ago, Roy M said:

From Porsche (via old 911uk link)

Compatibility of E10 fuel with Porsche vintage cars and recent classics
Verify your classic car‘s compatibility of E10 fuel with the help of our overview

E10 is a fuel which contains a higher proportion of ethanol than previous petrol formulations. The “E” stands for ethanol. The number “10” indicates that the fuel contains up to 10% ethanol. Previously the proportion of ethanol in petrol was up to 5%.

E10 fuels are suitable for refuelling and thus for running all Porsche vehicles as of year of construction 1996. Specifically, the Boxster (model year 1997) and Carrera (model year 1998) models onwards.

These new fuels, which can include up to 10% ethanol in the future in accordance with new statutory regulations, can be used in all new Porsche vehicles without any problems.

The fuel types Regular E10 (91 RON) and Unleaded E10 (95 RON) are not suitable for use in the following Porsche vehicle types:

Type Year of construction
356 1950-65
911 1965-89
912 1965-69; 1976
964 1989-94
993 1994-98
959 1988-89
914 1970-77
924 1976-88
944 1981-91
968 1991-95
928 1977-95

These Porsche vehicles may not be run on E10 fuel. As an alternative, Super unleaded (98 RON) can be used. With a maximum bioethanol content of 5% (E5 fuel), Super unleaded is compatible with these vehicles

Nice one Roy, that article about the US is confusing me though, need to dig some more!

[Beaky]

I know that in the UK ESSO, Shell, etc 98+ is still E5, likewise Total in France was E5 last Autumn.

 

 

Perhaps I can raise a question in PCGB and ask them to contact their counterparts in Europe to see what their take on this is.

[topcarrera]

If 5% is perfectly OK then I doubt that 10% is a disaster.

Suspect that the truth is that 5% ethanol content isn't ideal and that situation progressively worsens as content increases.

I've noticed the carburettor barrells on my Lancia progressively turn from a shiny smooth finish to a dull almost mat grey finish over the last 6 years or so.

Main issue is moisture absorbtion by alcohol from air within fuel tank and generally the very mildly corrosive properties of ethanol,  i.e. risk to fuel tank and system corroding when car is left standing for any period of time + general attack of soft metals and less chemically resistant rubber and plastic materials used in older fuel systems. I think modest additive treatment should help alleviate much of the risk   (Ive never tried these) but  .................????

[SP72]

Time to stock up :

 https://www.millersoils-shop.co.uk/eps-ethanol-protection-additive

https://www.millersoils-shop.co.uk/vspe-power-plus

[Phill]

OMG we've had this conversation before. They will supply both types. 

Let's talk about oil.......

[SurlySurdi]

13 minutes ago, SP72 said:

Time to stock up :

 https://www.millersoils-shop.co.uk/eps-ethanol-protection-additive

https://www.millersoils-shop.co.uk/vspe-power-plus

How often would you put this in, every fill up?

[SP72]

8 minutes ago, SurlySurdi said:

How often would you put this in, every fill up?

Yes, either a Full one shot bottle or a certain dosage of the bigger bottles (cheaper per dose)

Its approved by men with beards

[SurlySurdi]

11 minutes ago, SP72 said:

Yes, either a Full one shot bottle or a certain dosage of the bigger bottles (cheaper per dose)

Its approved by men with beards

Cheers, I need to stop shaving now DOH!

I was looking for something like a 5 or 10 litre can but no luck.

[swift911]

Haven't they had E10 in Europe for years.

[World Citizen]

6 hours ago, MarkJ said:

so will the government pay for all us classic car owners to have the necessary fuel system upgrades to cope with this bio-crap?....thought not. 

Times are hard Mark when you've got a classic car collection that you're trying to expand

Your government bleeding me dry posts really crack me up 😂 

[sopor]

https://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/ACEA_E10_compatibility.pdf says much the same - no E10 in air cooled cars or transaxle (924/944/968/928) cars.

[SurlySurdi]

So if/when E5 is no longer available one day in the future would changing fuel lines, seals etc be good enough?

Of course I’m assuming the engine internals can handle E10.

[fat fuchs]

Government consultation form here...have your say

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/introducing-e10-petrol

[SP72]

Thoughts* from Bamford Rose (AM specialist)

*use Esso SUL instead of the others 

 

[MarkJ]

15 hours ago, World Citizen said:

Times are hard Mark when you've got a classic car collection that you're trying to expand

Your government bleeding me dry posts really crack me up 😂 

Government and councils are thieving b*stards and I will never change my stance on them in all aspects of life. We are bled and subjugated by them from the moment you earn a wage until after we die! just to keep the wealthy 'wealthy' and the powers that be lording over us mortal plebs.  Anyone who thinks otherwise is a dreamer. I'm not loaded by any stretch, grew up in a council house and worked hard from there on,  just made the best from misfortune close family passing away, wife not able to have kids. So yes I do begrudge the endless ways to bleed more out of us or rip working folk off.  Want to dig me out any more?