What should I expect to pay for a 911 3.2 Carrera Club Sport?

[yellowbirdy]

what has club sports been trading at over the past 2-3 years? Is the current market making then more reasonable and where do I go about checking where they are being sold? I’m in the UK. Would prefer one well looked after by an enthusiast!

[SP72]

My old one E744CPC was at RPM Technik last year for £125k - it then reappeared at Silverstone auctions but unsure how much it went for.

[Wingnonut]

Edward Lovett (International Collectables) has one up for £157k. Seems pricey in today’s market. 

[786]

Wait a bit, all expensive cars will take a hit, especially more esoteric choices like a 3.2 CS. Recession not in full swing yet.

[johndglynn]

The market was perceived to be softening some time ago but supply has dwindled to nothing. Many if not most people who bought into rare RHD cars in the last 4/5 years bought in for the long term and they’ll likely sit out the dip unless there’s a bigger profit in something else that beats any loss they’ll take. I can’t see a £75k low mileage Club Sport coming any time soon.

[yellowbirdy]

From my research seems the ones trading hands over the past 1-2 years is between 100-120 at best... sound correct?

Given the current circumstances I think paying above 100 seems to be a little too eager

I agree they are in limited supply, but if 2-3 are trading hands every year out of 50, that’s actually quite a lot relative to the supply. A lot of speculators 

[Sidewaysfun]

Are you particularly wanting a 3.2 CS as an investment opportunity or as a drivers car?

 

[yellowbirdy]

I want to drive the wheels off the car.

Cars are never an investment... at best they may hold their value. If people think of cars as investments - good luck. I don’t think they’ll get rich trying.

but they are held by a lot of investors/speculators that are destroying it a little for us who really want to drive it.

[World Citizen]

The current CS owners control the market, more buyers than sellers so good luck waiting to find a cheap one

If you do want something to drive the wheels off rather than as an investment have you considered buying a mint white 3.2 and converting it to CS spec with bolt on mods

Will give you the same driving experience for a lot less cash and waiting

 

 

[GrahamTompkins]

4 minutes ago, World Citizen said:

The current CS owners control the market, more buyers than sellers so good luck waiting to find a cheap one

If you do want something to drive the wheels off rather than as an investment have you considered buying a mint white 3.2 and converting it to CS spec with bolt on mods

Will give you the same driving experience for a lot less cash and waiting

 

 

Beat me to it, I think people will still pay a premium for a properly done replica, 

[big al]

Now that’s an interesting exercise. As an owner of a Club Sport since October 2000 I’ve been following the CS market since 2010 and keep an eye on cars that are advertised. The prices quoted are what the car were advertised at, not the price paid, so there could be some adjustment there. I might have missed a couple of cars that have been sold privately but this is a general guide to the market.

2010    3 cars for sale, 53K, 50K, 50K

2011    3 cars for sale, 60K, 58K, 50K-60K auction

2012    1 car for sale, 66K

2013    4 cars for sale, all advertised as POA

2014    1 car for sale, 90K

2015    3 cars for sale, 180K, 120K, 250K

2016    2 cars for sale, 180-220K auction, 175K

2017    3 cars for sale, 175K, 175K, 200K

2018    4 cars for sale, 190K, 175K, 160K, 125K

2019    3 cars for sale, 125K, 190K, 95-110K auction

2020    1 car for sale, 157K

CS E356 WOK was advertised for sale in November 2011 @ £57,990
Advertised again in April 2020 @ £157,500

[yellowbirdy]

this information is fantastic... what a wealth of knowledge

 

totally agree that the current owners are controlling the market.

 

how would one say mileage affects these cars? say between a 50,000 mile and 100,000 mile example, would 20-30% be reasonable? I don’t mind a high mileage car given it’s maintained well as I plan to drive it to it makes the ‘mileage deprecation’ less 

[Sidewaysfun]

1 hour ago, World Citizen said:

The current CS owners control the market, more buyers than sellers so good luck waiting to find a cheap one

If you do want something to drive the wheels off rather than as an investment have you considered buying a mint white 3.2 and converting it to CS spec with bolt on mods

Will give you the same driving experience for a lot less cash and waiting

This is kinda what I was getting at.  If you're after driving experience, there could be a lot better option out there for you for a lot less cost  

General advice with 911's is buy on condition not on mileage, but then that kinda goes out the window when you're looking at rare/sought after versions.

[Sidewaysfun]

I don't usually keep up with what 911s are currently up for sale, but there seem to be a few examples out there that look like they'd be a hoot to drive, including a "550bhp" supercharged 964 for £50k!?

 

[johndglynn]

On 4/23/2020 at 1:59 AM, yellowbirdy said:

I agree they are in limited supply, but if 2-3 are trading hands every year out of 50, that’s actually quite a lot relative to the supply. A lot of speculators 

The pool is smaller. 53 sold in the UK BITD but some have been wrecked, others sold overseas. The ones coming up are the same ones going around, often advertised twice in a year as they get taken on and off the market or go through different dealers.

Owners of the cars I value for insurance have all had them 5/10 years or more and there is no intention to sell anytime soon. Definitely not in a soft market unless other factors come into it: age or illness perhaps. They are not speculators - it's a mix of those who lucked into desirable models or people who waited for years to buy the right car.

People who lucked into asset class items tend to be quite conscious of the notion that they will only get one chance to own and enjoy these things as, once they are out, it is unlikely that they will ever be able to afford re-entry.  So people hang on to the £10k oil painting Grandad found in a skip or the £8k chinese bowl that Uncle Frank brought back from his travels. Old 911s are the same thing for a lot of people.

[Mondrian]

Great insight in to the owners mentality of such cars JG, you should do a piece on this for your blog.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Mondrian
Typo

[Busybee]

Would it be wrong to say that going into an CS with a speculators mindset is probably going to end in tears - unless you are happy to sit on it for a long time? They have been seen as very desirable for quite a while now (sorry @SP72) so the prices will fluctuate with the markets. Over the long term, you'll likely be fine as with most stocks but if you're looking to buy, use a little and cash out in the short term, you are at risk. 

[World Citizen]

Question  for yellowbirdy,

Are you speculator, sniffing about in the hope of finding a distressed sale due to current circumstances or a longtime Porsche enthusiast looking to buy a keeper?

Tell us a bit about yourself, we won't bite! 🤪

[johndglynn]

1 hour ago, Mondrian said:

Great insight in to the owners mentality of such cars JG, you should do a piece on this for your blog.

Good idea sexypants 👍🏻

 

28 minutes ago, Busybee said:

Would it be wrong to say that going into an CS with a speculators mindset is probably going to end in tears

At the minute it is probably a non-starter. If you think the market is falling and want to get in early to cut out the competition then on something rare, you have to buy at today's prices. Most recent data puts the value of an average car circa £140-150k so the gap between a buyer's notional purchase price circa £100k and a seller's notional disposal price of £150k ish is unbridgeable.

Sellers hold all the cards so if there is no pressure to sell, then they just sit on it and wait for things to settle. The risk is they lose maybe £10-15k as the notional purchase price comes down to £135k but a: that only matters if you are selling and most are not and b: if you bought in at £35-55k then you still make £80-100k profit so who cares if it keeps falling.

Controlling supply is controlling the market and most people who have a CS or RS or whatever realise that, so really nice cars rarely come up for sale when something else is already out there. You could say Ed's CS is blocking anything else from popping up. Or maybe he is hoping that someone will put a 20k-miler on at £175k and it will sell and then Ed's car will also sell as it's £20k cheaper. This stuff happens all the time.

[RivieraBob]

On 22/04/2020 at 21:39, Wingnonut said:

Edward Lovett (International Collectables) has one up for £157k. Seems pricey in today’s market. 

coming up on here.....

https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/1988-porsche-911-carrera-32-club-sport

[yellowbirdy]

19 hours ago, World Citizen said:

Question  for yellowbirdy,

Are you speculator, sniffing about in the hope of finding a distressed sale due to current circumstances or a longtime Porsche enthusiast looking to buy a keeper?

Tell us a bit about yourself, we won't bite! 🤪

again. I buy cars and drive the wheels off them. I don't get how a ~100k mile car can be an asset... maybe a 5-10k or even 20k car, maybe. A BIG maybe. To those who think speculating on a non-yielding asset is going to make money, I think that's a long-run loser. You may find the next guy to sell it on, but as with non-yielding assets, you're always 1-2 buyers from the market caving in.

An old Porsche isn't even a non yielding asset.. its a negative yielding asset since you have to store it and fix it and maintain it etc. 

[Carrera2]

On 22/04/2020 at 17:50, yellowbirdy said:

what has club sports been trading at over the past 2-3 years? Is the current market making then more reasonable and where do I go about checking where they are being sold? I’m in the UK. Would prefer one well looked after by an enthusiast!

There is one coming up for sale on collecting cars. This should be interesting to see what sort of money it fetches 😨😨

[Busybee]

If it’s a good driver quality car you’re after, the price/rarity of the CS opens lots of doors. How about a hotrod. Something with a bigger motor, uprated suspension, stripped for weight. Have a word with @axel. Has a gorgeous golf blue up for sale. 

[johndglynn]

1 hour ago, yellowbirdy said:

again. I buy cars and drive the wheels off them. I don't get how a ~100k mile car can be an asset... maybe a 5-10k or even 20k car, maybe. A BIG maybe. To those who think speculating on a non-yielding asset is going to make money, I think that's a long-run loser. You may find the next guy to sell it on, but as with non-yielding assets, you're always 1-2 buyers from the market caving in.

An old Porsche isn't even a non yielding asset.. its a negative yielding asset since you have to store it and fix it and maintain it etc. 

History disagrees with you when it comes to Club Sports and other rarities. If 100k miler is all that's about it, has good history and is £20k cheaper than you were expecting to pay for a lower mileage car then many serial supercar buyers with an eye on returns will buy it. If you say yes to the 100k miler, then all you need is someone else who will say yes when the time comes to sell and finding one person who is also tired of waiting for a unicorn and wants a few months of Instagram bragging rights is not normally that difficult. What happens to the return for the guy 1-2 owners down the line is not part of a buyer's decision making process.

If you stumped up good money to buy a 100k-mile example one of 29 cars or whatever is left, the chances of the values falling miles between purchase and the eventual sale is pretty low. You just sit out softer markets, unless you have made a big chunk of money somewhere else in the interim and losing £15-20k is no big deal to you. This particular model does not have that many comparables within £35k of it - next is a 964RS so it operates in a big open sky value wise.

I like the value side of CS market watching but if you are out to "buy cars and drive the wheels off them" then a 3.2 and specifically a CS would not be my first choice. Lightweight and well set up SC is quicker, a third of the price and the shorter stroke makes for a sharper throttle if it's all running right.

[World Citizen]

2 hours ago, yellowbirdy said:

again. I buy cars and drive the wheels off them. I don't get how a ~100k mile car can be an asset... maybe a 5-10k or even 20k car, maybe. A BIG maybe. To those who think speculating on a non-yielding asset is going to make money, I think that's a long-run loser. You may find the next guy to sell it on, but as with non-yielding assets, you're always 1-2 buyers from the market caving in.

An old Porsche isn't even a non yielding asset.. its a negative yielding asset since you have to store it and fix it and maintain it etc. 

thanks for the reply and good luck with flipping err I meant driving the wheels off a CS 😉