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Beaky

Would you EV your IB

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Just watching a programme called Vintage Voltage on Quest. They are EVing a Karmann Ghia. So far they have bolted the motor directly to the gearbox (missed first half hour). Batteries under rear parcel shelf and under the bonnet. Front pack weighs 180kg, motor 50kg. Rear pack looked same size as front so another 180kg. Motor is rated at 120hp. 

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Posted (edited)

Ok finished. Testing gave a range of 170 miles - pretty good. Quicker than standard obviously but the owner said it felt heavy which he thought was good because it cornered better. They said it did 0-60 in under 10 seconds compared to the original 18 seconds. They had to fit adjustable spring plates to counter the battery weight. Conversion cost £30,000. I didn't see what they did to the gearbox internals.

Edited by Phill

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1 hour ago, Phill said:

Ok finished. Testing gave a range of 170 miles - pretty good. Quicker than standard obviously but the owner said it felt heavy which he thought was good because it cornered better. They said it did 0-60 in under 10 seconds compared to the original 18 seconds. They had to fit adjustable spring plates to counter the battery weight. Conversion cost £30,000. I didn't see what they did to the gearbox internals.

They are the ones doing Jonny's 914 , its in the series..

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On 23/06/2020 at 06:47, tea boy said:

No don’t do it.

If you want an electric car just buy one.

You wouldn’t repaint the Mona Lisa so she was wearing a tracksuit.

Exactly ...

... or replace the Merlin in a Spitfire. Isn't that the whole point, these cars are classics and the engine is a core part of what they are.  We don't buy them because they are especially fast or practical, but because we like the history, the experience of driving them, maintaining them, finding bits ... What's the point of trying to turn them into something modern?  If I want something modern, EV or otherwise, I'll just go and buy it.  Otherwise, it's just a another empty style statement.

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Everyone is into classics for different reasons. My car collection is entirely built around the engines - straight six petrol and diesel, flat six petrol, V8 petrol, big four petrol, turbo'd four petrol and diesel and many flat twins - but if the tech allows for more power, better efficiency and a nicer drive or ride than a modern electric car, then I would totally EV a classic. I would not be interested in adding large battery packs in the way they slung them into the Karmann Ghia though and £30k can do one. But eventually the numbers wll be difficult if not impossible to resist.

Give it three or four years and a good chunk (maybe 20-25%) of the RHD classic 911s sold every year will be heading for EV converters in the UK and beyond: no doubt about it. There are so many people doing them now all over the world and it is a definite movement. If you are not following EV culture then you won't have much of an idea just how busy it is at the older end. It is super active and conversions are not all £30k+.

An off-the-shelf kit for a 944 is currently under £15k and that is only getting cheaper. It all fits low in the chassis and the car is unmodified internally: cabin space and comfort remains the same. No brainer to do this if it's say £8k given all of the benefits, plus it probably doubles the value of the car as a petrol. I like the idea.

Thinking of a 911, if I still had my 912E then it would definitely be looking at an EV install now. No point doing anything else with rebuilt 3-litre engines over £10k. I am not rushing out to de-ICE my C3 but who knows what the landscape will look like in ten years. I will be 62 and the world will be a different place. EVs are likely to be a significant part of the classic car hobby. The interest in converting classics will be helping to support the value of all characterful classics. All good IMHO.

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On 22/06/2020 at 11:14, carreracat said:

there's a great harrys garage video on the actual energy cost of running an EV.  once you factor all of the power production emissions, the environmental impact of the shipping miles clocked up on getting the parts to construct together, and the human and environmental impact of battery component mining and disposal it doesn't look so green after all.


Embodied energy and air miles applies to ICE cars too...Batteries aren’t just used in EVs either and most can be recycled as they already are.


My 914 was bought without an engine.  The motor and batteries are recycled.    Very little embodied energy in the original 1975 vehicle build nor in the work carried out to convert it.  Pretty low impact.
 

To me this is just modern hot rodding.  It’ll have 300hp and a 150 mile range.  It doesn’t need to ‘warm up’ which is a big attraction for short journeys. 

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16 minutes ago, johndglynn said:

Everyone is into classics for different reasons. My car collection is entirely built around the engines - straight six petrol and diesel, flat six petrol, V8 petrol, big four petrol, turbo'd four petrol and diesel and many flat twins - but if the tech allows for more power, better efficiency and a nicer drive or ride than a modern electric car, then I would totally EV a classic. I would not be interested in adding large battery packs in the way they slung them into the Karmann Ghia though and £30k can do one. But eventually the numbers wll be difficult if not impossible to resist.

Give it three or four years and a good chunk (maybe 20-25%) of the RHD classic 911s sold every year will be heading for EV converters in the UK and beyond: no doubt about it. There are so many people doing them now all over the world and it is a definite movement. If you are not following EV culture then you won't have much of an idea just how busy it is at the older end. It is super active and conversions are not all £30k+.

An off-the-shelf kit for a 944 is currently under £15k and that is only getting cheaper. It all fits low in the chassis and the car is unmodified internally: cabin space and comfort remains the same. No brainer to do this if it's say £8k given all of the benefits, plus it probably doubles the value of the car as a petrol. I like the idea.

Thinking of a 911, if I still had my 912E then it would definitely be looking at an EV install now. No point doing anything else with rebuilt 3-litre engines over £10k. I am not rushing out to de-ICE my C3 but who knows what the landscape will look like in ten years. I will be 62 and the world will be a different place. EVs are likely to be a significant part of the classic car hobby. The interest in converting classics will be helping to support the value of all characterful classics. All good IMHO.

Not for me I'm afraid, no interest at all. However, that doesn't make me some form of luddite, I've worked in tech my whole career and am very happy to be as eco-friendly as I can in daily life. It just means that my 911 was bought for other reasons, it's a hobby and an experience. Don't really care what anyone else does or thinks.   

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No interest here either I’m afraid. Like a soul removal putting a dyson in an ICE classic shell. Suck out the noise, drama, nostalgia, add in precious metals, weight and ridiculously short run times at full chat. Like having a Margot Robbie exterior and being disappointed to find all her lady bits have gone when her kit is off! 😂

Plus there’s the charging from fossil fuels issue which is still the elephant in the room. 

I’d have a taycan turbo s for a daily (turbo s, snigger) if I lived in a city or had a short commute. But that’s as far as my interest goes and certainly not into my hobby. The constantly watching the range and thinking this flipping thing is going to take hours to charge would spoil it for me. 

One day, I may be converted but I’d want to see quick chargers everywhere like petrol stations and charge times that aren’t stoopid, weight that’s reasonable and maybe a speaker inside to mimic an ice engine lol. Don’t think I’ll see it in my lifetime. 

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The overall problem is that we are so archaic. There has to be a better way than batteries. Someone will invent it at some point and I hope it won't mean digging up the earth to recover enough of whatever it is we need. Perhaps solar cells that are so efficient they can provide enough power without the need for bright sunshine and batteries to store the energy. We just won't be able to drive at night :lol: 

Direct power from hydrogen, small reactors or how about mixing hydrogen with something to make it stable and then we can squirt that into some sort of ICE. Come on you geniuses (and I don't mean this forum................)

But, on the topic, I have regularly driven 3 different EV/hybrid vehicles at work and they are all bad. Boring and they actually give me motion sickness when I am driving. Its all very well talking about Taycans and the like but we have to be realistic here. For what most of us can afford we are screwed and that includes any one off conversion whether it costs £8000 or £30000. It just won't have the involvement of driving an ICE with gears and an unlimited range no matter how you drive.

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A question. With the rise of vegetable based ethanol in petrol, why cannot we redesign or retrofit systems in ice cars to run on pure veggie vegan ethanol? It must have a heck of a calorific value, could be mixed with veggie oils to dumb it down, can be squirted in. It would also be 100% sustainable? What am I missing cause it has to be something? 

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I've not researched it, but according to a Brazilian colleague local versions of mainstream cars sold in Brazil all run on bio- ethanol.

One big issue with producing any bio fuel is the loss of food resources. You either use a food itself (e.g. corn and wheat), or use farmland to grow something to use.

With a growing global population all available resources will be needed for food production, not bio fuel.

 

And no, I will not be going EV with a classic.

 

Mark

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Posted (edited)

I've no interest in EV'ing my 930 or 964 as for me 75% of each car's character comes from the engine/box, the rest of the driving experience comes from how they handle and stop

EV's with a single speed motor with just a stop and go pedal will never be as involving a drive as rev's. clutch and changing gears

I'll have an EV for sure one day soon but it will be either a commuter car or something a bit more interesting like a KTM Freeride E-XC.

We kick started the the EV revolution in our house hold and bought a 36V Makita lawn mower this weekend, baby steps, baby steps!

The biggest problem with EV's are the batteries, they are difficult to manufacture, expensive, heavy and don't have a comparable power density to fossil fuels. I work with the most advanced/highest power density, commercially available battery cells out there and it's mind blowing how much time, effort and money goes into nursing them into a working reliable system.

EV revolution is happening but not at the timescales people/governments think it will so hang onto your 'pee' smelling classics as EV's won't be making them obsolete in out lifetime

 

Edited by World Citizen

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All this "no soul from EVs" is such a load of crap. I have driven loads and they all have something about them.

But even if you are hating on modern EVs. We are not talking about a modern EV. The thread is about EVing classic cars in a positively engineered way.

Done right it is 300 bhp in 1250-1300 kilos, period style with lower centre of gravity, no more 25 mpg and no more petrol stations. Increased value and something the kids can inherit and enjoy. No kids want old classics now as they are so difficult to maintain if you don't have the skills or the network. All the power needed to run electric A/C and PAS. Beautiful.

I like the idea of using an early 944 down the road and doubly excited by the idea that it could be electric.

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2 minutes ago, World Citizen said:

The biggest problem with EV's are the batteries, they are difficult to manufacture, expensive, heavy

This is true but things are always changing. This includes one's own perspective. As so much new tech can be very positive for everyone, it's important to keep an open mind on all of this, rather than resorting to the usual predictable 'we fear change' knee-jerk on:

  • the ev revolution and feelings regarding said movement
  • the nature of a 50-something's relationship with petrol engines
  • the idea that new tech will never match old tech for involvement
  • the idea that somehow Porsche would not approve

Porsche would approve. Porsche's first car was an EV. Find a way to package the right power in a 911 eventually - technology permitting - and the resulting product will exceed anything you have experienced to date. Much as I love my turbodiesel Civic - the perfect car perhaps, one of the nicest cars I have owned for sure - I doubt that I'll miss ICE engines when they eventually disappear from modern cars, as I enjoyed running my Prius for three years. Not perfect but some good points. An autonymous EV driving me around to nose over fences at peoples' house build projects in my 90s is eagerly anticipated.

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1 minute ago, johndglynn said:

All this "no soul from EVs" is such a load of crap. I have driven loads and they all have something about them.

But even if you are hating on modern EVs. We are not talking about a modern EV. The thread is about EVing classic cars in a positively engineered way.

Done right it is 300 bhp in 1250-1300 kilos, period style with lower centre of gravity, no more 25 mpg and no more petrol stations. Increased value and something the kids can inherit and enjoy. No kids want old classics now as they are so difficult to maintain if you don't have the skills or the network. All the power needed to run electric A/C and PAS. Beautiful.

I like the idea of using an early 944 down the road and doubly excited by the idea that it could be electric.

Everything has character in so far as it is unique, but I think the key point is that an IB 911 without a flat six isn't the car that Porsche designed and built, and can't be the same driving or ownership experience. I also think that swapping out the drive train for an EV one is also fundamentally different from traditional hot-rodding or even resto-modding, both of which usually try to retain the essential character of the car and often include things that might have been done in period. Different strokes for different folks ... 🙂

 

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One person's crap is another person's awesome, what each person want's from a car is all subjective :twocents:

No right or wrong opinions on this thread, just different opinions

I love what Jonny is doing to his 914, wish he would start a build thread on it, not another 'infomercial thread' but a real, proper, thoroughly enjoyable car build thread, posting up the highs and lows of the project, the technical challenges with solutions etc etc

Would make fascinating reading, like the type of build threads we used have so many of.

 

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4 minutes ago, johndglynn said:

This is true but things are always changing. This includes one's own perspective. As so much new tech can be very positive for everyone, it's important to keep an open mind on all of this, rather than resorting to the usual predictable 'we fear change' knee-jerk on:

  • the ev revolution and feelings regarding said movement
  • the nature of a 50-something's relationship with petrol engines
  • the idea that new tech will never match old tech for involvement
  • the idea that somehow Porsche would not approve

Porsche would approve. Porsche's first car was an EV. Find a way to package the right power in a 911 eventually - technology permitting - and the resulting product will exceed anything you have experienced to date. Much as I love my turbodiesel Civic - the perfect car perhaps, one of the nicest cars I have owned for sure - I doubt that I'll miss ICE engines when they eventually disappear from modern cars, as I enjoyed running my Prius for three years. Not perfect but some good points. An autonymous EV driving me around to nose over fences at peoples' house build projects in my 90s is eagerly anticipated.

To which we might also add, don't pigeonhole everyone that doesn't agree as 'we fear change' knee-jerking reactionaries. The question was, 'would you EV your IB?' To which my answer is 'no', because it would no longer fulfill the reasons why I bought it. I have no problems with solar panels on my house, or having a ground source heat pump or building a passiv house, or using an EV for regular transport. 🙂

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IMHO without the sound, gears, vibration, interaction from the IC, elsctrictricery cars are pants. Just transport.
Soul! Fire up, Rev it, slip yer shades on and gun it! Ohhh I’m going warp factor #*#£ in my glorified bumper car. Nahhhh. Maybe for the youngsters. 

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As an aside, a recent study in Nature (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-020-0488-7) concluded that, although more carbon is emitted in manufacturing  an EV than an ICE powered car, carbon reductions over the lifecycle of the vehicle are about 70% lower in countries that have decarbonised power generation.  This suggests that the gains might be far less in countries that still have a large proportion of their power generated using fossil fuels (I'm guessing still >50% in the UK), or where the vehicle concerned is used relatively infrequently or for shorter journeys (most classics I assume).  I'm sure the equation will change quickly as the technology develops, but ...?

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3 hours ago, World Citizen said:

I love what Jonny is doing to his 914, wish he would start a build thread on it, not another 'infomercial thread' but a real, proper, thoroughly enjoyable car build thread, posting up the highs and lows of the project, the technical challenges with solutions etc etc

Would make fascinating reading, like the type of build threads we used have so many of.

 

I will when I finally get my hands on it.  Currently stuck in Wales - the car that is!  There is tons to do still and I will document it here.

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1 hour ago, jehatwhitland said:

This suggests that the gains might be far less in countries that still have a large proportion of their power generated using fossil fuels (I'm guessing still >50% in the UK).

Don't guess, it's an easy Google.  43% and falling from fossil fuels.

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Although I prefer engines to fridge motors, the term ICE to describe them really gets on my tits.

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EV might fulfill a need sometime in future and for the most part replace ICE for our daily cars but I just can't see how it can ever fulfill a desire the same way a flat six engine can.

Besides how does one even tinker with an electric engine? 

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2 hours ago, tea boy said:

the term ICE to describe them really gets on my tits.

Frozen nibble syndrome? 

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