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OK folks, looking for some advise, feedback.

Now that I have the roll cage fitted, I'm thinking of adding a harness just to the drivers side.

For mostly fast road use and the occasion track day is a 3" harness OTT - they do look cool!

I'm think a 4 pointas opposed to 5 or 6 point harness is OK

Edited by Beaky
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I’d go 3 but be careful and only buy from reputable seller. Loads of fake no use, dangerous copies out there. I’ve had success with Schroth from porsche Indy dealers  as Opc sell off passenger side from GT3rs customers?

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Posted (edited)

I’ve been offered a Set of securon belts (3”, 4 point with trigger release) which are now out of date (FIA dated 2007) in excellent Condition. Cars been off the road for a few years and now (Covid free time!) being put back Into service for track use, but belts and seats needed changing.

Edited by Beaky
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Not worth risking second hand to be honest.be worth trying to buy some new short or recent expired belts. I’m guessing but have a chat to Demon Tweeks or maybe Merlin?  

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11 hours ago, Beaky said:

I’ve been offered a Set of securon belts (3”, 4 point with trigger release) which are now out of date (FIA dated 2007) in excellent Condition. Cars been off the road for a few years and now (Covid free time!) being put back Into service for track use, but belts and seats needed changing.

Have been looking at harnesses for my car and been advised against four point systems because of the risk of "submarining".  Apparently the standard car seatbelt prevents this because you're essentially wrapped around the chest part of the belt on impact which prevents you pelvis sliding underneath the lap portion of the belt system.

If you want a four point belt for ease/comfort that is designed to prevent submarining then the Schroth do a FIA approved system that prevents submarining:

When the time comes I may well opt for this Schroth design: https://www.schroth.com/en/segments/racing/products/details/show/profi-iii-asm.html

They also do one which has an ECE buckle as well as being FIA approved: https://www.schroth.com/en/segments/racing/products/details/show/profi-iii-fe-asm.html

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I would recommend having a chat with the guys at GSM seats in Nottingham.  They often work out very affordable when compared to Tweeks etc and sometimes have ex-display models cheaper.

I bought my seats and harness from there. 

One thing to note with some harnesses are they can position specific. Eg Drivers side is different from passenger side.  I believe this is to do with the Anti-submarine stitching on the Schroths? (Open to be corrected on this)

I went with 3" shoulders with 2" lap belts and think they're perfect :wub:

IMG_20190713_013446.jpg

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6 hours ago, map said:

Have been looking at harnesses for my car and been advised against four point systems because of the risk of "submarining".  Apparently the standard car seatbelt prevents this because you're essentially wrapped around the chest part of the belt on impact which prevents you pelvis sliding underneath the lap portion of the belt system.

If you want a four point belt for ease/comfort that is designed to prevent submarining then the Schroth do a FIA approved system that prevents submarining:

When the time comes I may well opt for this Schroth design: https://www.schroth.com/en/segments/racing/products/details/show/profi-iii-asm.html

They also do one which has an ECE buckle as well as being FIA approved: https://www.schroth.com/en/segments/racing/products/details/show/profi-iii-fe-asm.html

Think the anti-submarine with conventional belts comes from only one shoulder being restrained which causes the pelvis to rotate which in turn tightens the lap belt

I'd recommend Schroth too!

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Quick question.

Did you use the existing front seat belt mounts for the lap straps?

For the Shoulders straps i can either wrap round the roll cage or Use the rear seat belt mounts.

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I wouldn’t worry about buying used or out of date belts if they are in good visible condition.  I have just replaced a perfect five point set because they expired on 31/12/19.  Nothing wrong with them at all and they have been passed as fit by a Scrutineer at every event.

If you are doing track and want to go to the full length, go with HANS and 2” shoulder belts.  If you don’t want to use HANS, go with 3” and use wrap around shoulder pads.  I would personally advise five or six point belts, although five point may be more comfortable.  Wrap the shoulder straps around the cage; if you need a schematic on how to do it I will dig you one out.

You will probably find it easiest to replace the lower seat belt mounting bolts with 7/16” UNF eyelets, meaning you can clip the lap straps onto them but still retain seatbelt functionality.  They are readily available, but if you struggle in these COVID times let me know.  I have loads, so I’ll send you a couple over.

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11 minutes ago, oliverjamesthomas said:

I wouldn’t worry about buying used or out of date belts if they are in good visible condition.  I have just replaced a perfect five point set because they expired on 31/12/19.  Nothing wrong with them at all and they have been passed as fit by a Scrutineer at every event.

If you are doing track and want to go to the full length, go with HANS and 2” shoulder belts.  If you don’t want to use HANS, go with 3” and use wrap around shoulder pads.  I would personally advise five or six point belts, although five point may be more comfortable.  Wrap the shoulder straps around the cage; if you need a schematic on how to do it I will dig you one out.

You will probably find it easiest to replace the lower seat belt mounting bolts with 7/16” UNF eyelets, meaning you can clip the lap straps onto them but still retain seatbelt functionality.  They are readily available, but if you struggle in these COVID times let me know.  I have loads, so I’ll send you a couple over.

Thanks for the offer, but Not to worry as I already have a set of eyelets.

I’ve seen are a few YouTube clips on how to wrap so we give it a go.

if one fits a Harness does one still need to keep Seat belts for the MOT?

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10 hours ago, Beaky said:

Quick question.

Did you use the existing front seat belt mounts for the lap straps?

For the Shoulders straps i can either wrap round the roll cage or Use the rear seat belt mounts.

I used Brey krause harness mounts (R-9001 and R-9003).  One off the OEM mount by the sill (door side) using stock bolt.  For tunnel side, I already had a mounting bracket which came with the 993 rails.  Looks like 5mm steel with a welded imperial nut on the back which sits between my rails and side mount brackets, may even be a Recaro part...  Similar to Brey Krause R-9005 style.

Rears I mounted to eyelets in the rear seat belt buckle holes and guided over the Brey krause harness guide (which has been doing the rounds on IB forum lol)

I wouldn't mount harnesses direct to the rear belt mounts without a guide, as the angle of your rear harness could crush your spine in a shunt.  Mount to cage would be fine though (or use cage as a guide?)

I'm also unsure on the legality of harnesses AND seat belts.  My Schroth is like the one linked above, with the ECE buckle, so hoping no issues with MOT.  However, I am sure I have read somewhere that it's an MOT fail to have both mounted at the same time..  Not quite sure on the reasoning, perhaps getting snagged in the event of a crash?

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For my shoulder straps I have the option to wrap those around my rear roll cage cross bar (harness guide), or have them run over the roll cage cross bar then bolt into the rear seat belt mounts.

For the lap straps I'll use the existing front seat belt mounts, one of which is similar to your being on the Reacro side mounting bracket and where the standard seat belt bucket is fitted.

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I spoke with a couple of friends that own garage with MOT stations.

You can replace the standard seat belts with a harness, they test it in the same way they would test a standatd one. If you retain both, they then need to test both in the same way.

Steve Winters suggests I keep both (O the weight) as the standard one is much more comfortable on a long drive.

 

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Ah that's awesome feedback, cheers Beaky!  I left both in mine in for that very reason.  Haven't decided whether to put a harness in the passenger side yet, currently using the standard one for passenger comfort.

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Chris, I have a Schroth 5-pt harness in my car, drivers side only and I kept the standard seat belt. Getting in and out of a harness soon tires for everyday use. You can use the seatbelt mounting point for your lap belt eye and the top straps naturally use the rear seat belt mounts, mine go over a strut bar (Brey Krause). My crotch belt is mounted to the floor.

(excuse the grubby seats, been in and out of them this morning whilst fixing the car)

 

Harness belts & Seats.jpg

Harness -belt mount.jpg

Harness -rear mounts.jpg

Edited by MarkJ
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/08/2020 at 14:41, World Citizen said:

Think the anti-submarine with conventional belts comes from only one shoulder being restrained which causes the pelvis to rotate which in turn tightens the lap belt

I'd recommend Schroth too!

Late to this!

I have the Schroth ASM 4-point belts in my car they are brilliant. 3in shoulder straps but smaller width hip straps made from seatbelt-like material for comfort. They're perfect for a dual purpose road/track car.

The antisubmarine technology is actually a designed-in weak point in the shoulder strap closest to the centre of the car. In a heavy impact, the stitching splits and unlocks a couple more inches of slack in that belt, letting your torso tilt as it would with a three point belt. This tilt is why a conventional seatbelt protects against submarining. It's the yellow bit in this pic.

schroth_profi_2_asm_rgb_72dpi.jpg

For this reason the belts are "handed" so make sure you buy a LH and RH set and pay attention on install.

They are much better quality than the Willians they replaced, much more convenient and much more comfortable - I never use the conventional three point belt in the car anymore.

I've used a lot of belts over the years, Willians, Sabelt, the more expensive TRS enduro style - these are the dogs and worth the extra few pounds.

 

IMG_2289.jpg

Edited by reddevil
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I still don't like the way a 4 point belt rides up and sits above the hips if you use it as intended and adjust the shoulders so its tight and holds you.  Even with that anti-sub tech, I can't "feel" safe with a belt round my soft bits vs the hips/pelvis.  Personally, I would never use one even if that is unscientific.  $0.02.

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Posted (edited)
On 26/08/2020 at 11:06, reddevil said:

Late to this!

I have the Schroth ASM 4-point belts in my car they are brilliant. 3in shoulder straps but smaller width hip straps made from seatbelt-like material for comfort. They're perfect for a dual purpose road/track car.

The antisubmarine technology is actually a designed-in weak point in the shoulder strap closest to the centre of the car. In a heavy impact, the stitching splits and unlocks a couple more inches of slack in that belt, letting your torso tilt as it would with a three point belt. This tilt is why a conventional seatbelt protects against submarining. It's the yellow bit in this pic.

For this reason the belts are "handed" so make sure you buy a LH and RH set and pay attention on install.

They are much better quality than the Willians they replaced, much more convenient and much more comfortable - I never use the conventional three point belt in the car anymore.

I've used a lot of belts over the years, Willians, Sabelt, the more expensive TRS enduro style - these are the dogs and worth the extra few pounds.

 

This is what I fitted in the end, quality is very good, and a vomfortable fit. I ordered the RH for the drivers side, I checked twice with Demon Tweets, to ensure I got it the correct side. 

Looking at the bucket I believe you can add a crutch strap if desired.

Edited by Beaky
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  • 4 weeks later...

Quick question.

What if anything are people using to tidy up the lap straps belts which seem to have a lot of spare length

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In my Caterham days I used short pieces of bungie cord (from the local chandler) in a colour similar to the belts. A loop in one end and a knot on the other, knot through the loop and a cheap removable extra retainer for the loose belt ends was the result.

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