FrankenCIS installation on a 930 (from mechanical to digital WUR ) ??

[carrpet]

Stimulated by Ian Comerford's question about getting more power out of Bosch CIS and then David (flatsix) and Jonny Hart's responses, as we are now in lockdown (and winter is nigh) I am looking for a good project to start so I thought I would float the idea of this digital WUR and see what level of interest there is in this ?

Like others, I have been following the Pelican thread for some while and whilst there has been a lot of interest on 928s and 924s I have yet to see a definitive 930 installation that someone has seen through to completion and left installed (is that because full EFI is the big prize ?). The Bosch WUR is clearly an imperfect solution at delivering the right AFR under all engine conditions. Perhaps someone can point me at one ?

It certainly isn't a cheap project but the benefits have to be more power throughout the power curve and a smoother engine response (and a potential significant improvement in fuel economy, but we are not interested in that are we  ??). So maybe we would have to go on emotion rather than logic ?

The FrankenCIS Metering block (version 2) is £275 plus delivery and import tax (say £360), a fuel injector is about £50 and MicroSquirt is £350 so we are over £750 before we start, and then there are the various sensors and dampers (WbO2, Fuel pressure ,MAP, IAT, Engine temp - sound like total project cost would be £1000) ), but hey, it does sound like a good technical challenge and a lot of fun ! Have I got your interest yet ?

However, I already have a head start

I already have installed;
           AEM X-series - Wide-band UEGO gauge which uses a Bosch LSU4.9 probe and has a 0-5v analogue output
           AEM  X-series - 0-100 psi fuel pressure gauge - 0-5v analogue output
I have purchased
           Delphi FJ10409 Fuel Injector
I still need
          Fuel pressure damper - Toyota 23270-062010 plus gasket
          Denso MAP sensor
          IAT sensor - Bosch 0280130085
          Porsche 996 engine temperature sensor
          
I have never used Mega/Micro squirt but that doesn't seem to be unsurmountable based on what I have read.

There are some potential opportunities;
       I also have installed one of Jonny Hart's CDI+ units - not sure how that would fit in if at all ?

First questions would be around sensor selection
Second question would be around using the 0-5v analogue outputs into micro-squirt
Third question is - what else is there that I have missed. ? Throttle position sensor, crankshaft position sensor, ignition distributor, fuel distributor head ?

If anyone has any thoughts or input on any of the above please let me know and see where we get to !

Regards

Peter

 

 

[Jonny Hart]

It’s a project that we are certainly interested in.  
 

The processor in the CDI+ is more than capable of doing the necessary control which would eliminate the need for the megasquirt.  We would need to add some extra I/O but that isn’t a huge issue. 
 

Whether the system needs to run closed loop is a big question.   You could just drive the fuel injector and control the fuel map against RPM.   It may not be necessary for the box to know the ‘actual’ AFR, might be good enough to just be able to map the fuel and observe with external equipment.

[PorscheApostle]

1 hour ago, carrpet said:

Stimulated by Ian Comerford's question about getting more power out of Bosch CIS and then David (flatsix) and Jonny Hart's responses, as we are now in lockdown (and winter is nigh) I am looking for a good project to start so I thought I would float the idea of this digital WUR and see what level of interest there is in this ?

Like others, I have been following the Pelican thread for some while and whilst there has been a lot of interest on 928s and 924s I have yet to see a definitive 930 installation that someone has seen through to completion and left installed (is that because full EFI is the big prize ?). The Bosch WUR is clearly an imperfect solution at delivering the right AFR under all engine conditions. Perhaps someone can point me at one ?

It certainly isn't a cheap project but the benefits have to be more power throughout the power curve and a smoother engine response (and a potential significant improvement in fuel economy, but we are not interested in that are we  ??). So maybe we would have to go on emotion rather than logic ?

The FrankenCIS Metering block (version 2) is £275 plus delivery and import tax (say £360), a fuel injector is about £50 and MicroSquirt is £350 so we are over £750 before we start, and then there are the various sensors and dampers (WbO2, Fuel pressure ,MAP, IAT, Engine temp - sound like total project cost would be £1000) ), but hey, it does sound like a good technical challenge and a lot of fun ! Have I got your interest yet ?

However, I already have a head start

I already have installed;
           AEM X-series - Wide-band UEGO gauge which uses a Bosch LSU4.9 probe and has a 0-5v analogue output
           AEM  X-series - 0-100 psi fuel pressure gauge - 0-5v analogue output
I have purchased
           Delphi FJ10409 Fuel Injector
I still need
          Fuel pressure damper - Toyota 23270-062010 plus gasket
          Denso MAP sensor
          IAT sensor - Bosch 0280130085
          Porsche 996 engine temperature sensor
          
I have never used Mega/Micro squirt but that doesn't seem to be unsurmountable based on what I have read.

There are some potential opportunities;
       I also have installed one of Jonny Hart's CDI+ units - not sure how that would fit in if at all ?

First questions would be around sensor selection
Second question would be around using the 0-5v analogue outputs into micro-squirt
Third question is - what else is there that I have missed. ? Throttle position sensor, crankshaft position sensor, ignition distributor, fuel distributor head ?

If anyone has any thoughts or input on any of the above please let me know and see where we get to !

Regards

Peter

 

 

The turbo stock cis system. Can support up to 400bhp with engine mods. ( k27 or bigger , btr cams , 3.5 etc) . Beyond that and running more boost the metering head is your stumbling block. Without modifying it significantly (moochos deneeros) efi is just a much better  more cost effective and flexible solution. 

There have been mods with the likes of 3rd injectors to pump neat fuel in at max boost and high rpm but it's not an ideal solution.

I suppose the question is more fuel control on an electro- hydraulic solution which sounds interesting. You'd have to be able to provide full boost enrichment including a graduated choke system that mimics the wur. And in place of it. Sounds interesting but likely to be nothing in it from an efi perspective once you've done all the hard work perfecting it. 

But technically sounds like a great project and as the WUR mods have been done to death it would be good to see a reliable electronic alternative that maintained the stock look. I think that would be the appeal as with Johnny's spark Boxes. 

 

D

 

 

[carrpet]

44 minutes ago, PorscheApostle said:

The turbo stock cis system. Can support up to 400bhp with engine mods. ( k27 or bigger , btr cams , 3.5 etc) . Beyond that and running more boost the metering head is your stumbling block. Without modifying it significantly (moochos deneeros) efi is just a much better  more cost effective and flexible solution. 

There have been mods with the likes of 3rd injectors to pump neat fuel in at max boost and high rpm but it's not an ideal solution.

I suppose the question is more fuel control on an electro- hydraulic solution which sounds interesting. You'd have to be able to provide full boost enrichment including a graduated choke system that mimics the wur. And in place of it. Sounds interesting but likely to be nothing in it from an efi perspective once you've done all the hard work perfecting it. 

But technically sounds like a great project and as the WUR mods have been done to death it would be good to see a reliable electronic alternative that maintained the stock look. I think that would be the appeal as with Johnny's spark Boxes. 

 

D

 

 

Thanks for the input D.

Not really in it for ultimate BHP although I do have a K27 7200 and long neck intercooler installed.

Just sounds like it should be technically feasible with minimum disruption and better than current - how much better remains to be seen !

Regards

Peter

1 hour ago, Jonny Hart said:

It’s a project that we are certainly interested in.  
 

The processor in the CDI+ is more than capable of doing the necessary control which would eliminate the need for the megasquirt.  We would need to add some extra I/O but that isn’t a huge issue. 
 

Whether the system needs to run closed loop is a big question.   You could just drive the fuel injector and control the fuel map against RPM.   It may not be necessary for the box to know the ‘actual’ AFR, might be good enough to just be able to map the fuel and observe with external equipment.

Interesting question on the necessity for closed loop control. If and when we have a "map" we can look at the relationship between rpm, fuel dosage via the injector (frequency ?) and AFR.

Good input Jonny

Thanks

Peter

[Jonny Hart]

The injector will be fixed frequency but change of PWM duty.  
 

This would operate would be pretty much as the frequency valve does in a US ‘lambda’ car.  
 

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/340358-frequency-valve-operation-question.html

Since it is open loop at WOT, max power would be unchanged, however, it might improve ‘drivability’ 

 

[carrpet]

Thanks

8 hours ago, Jonny Hart said:

The injector will be fixed frequency but change of PWM duty.  
 

This would operate would be pretty much as the frequency valve does in a US ‘lambda’ car.  
 

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/340358-frequency-valve-operation-question.html

Since it is open loop at WOT, max power would be unchanged, however, it might improve ‘drivability’ 

 

Thanks Jonny

[Ian Comerford]

Given that we are neighbours and that much of the art of the possible reads across to my SC I am very interested in how this develops.  What’s next?

[PeterK]

Clone Jonny ?

[carrpet]

I have just started a new thread on Pelican to see if I can draw out someone who has a successful 930 install. There is a guy, flightlead404, who claims to have done this successfully , so let's see what transfer of knowledge we can get..

I have registered on the Dkubus website (Dkubus supply the anodised aluminium digital WUR blocks) but the site is not allowing me to get a shipping cost to the UK. I am however in touch with Mike via email.

[carrpet]

Question - has anyone any experience of installing a Throttle Postion Sensor on the throttle body. I understand that I have a Throttle Position switch as standard but a TPS is a potentiometer which enables microsquirt to know what position the throttle is in at any point in time. These are essential for EFI to work.

[carrpet]

Courtesy of Kenikh on Pelican

Temperature sensor part and location

Drilling and tapping required (this is an Ian Comerford area of expertise !!!!!)

https://www.heritagepartscentre.com/uk/311906041a-temp-sensor-for-cylinder-head-fi-us.html

Edited November 9, 2020 by carrpet

[Ian Comerford]

Are we sure that cooling fins are the right place for a temp sensor?  Seems like they are a place to get rid of heat but may not be representative of real temps.  Just a thought

[carrpet]

10 minutes ago, Ian Comerford said:

Are we sure that cooling fins are the right place for a temp sensor?  Seems like they are a place to get rid of heat but may not be representative of real temps.  Just a thought

Ian, if we were measuring absolute engine temperature I would agree with you.  My view is the microsquirt map will just be built on real data based on the temperature difference measured at a fixed part of the engine block as the engine goes from cold to warm to hot.  It would be a different temperature map if the sensor was located in one of the oil heat exchangers for example, but both would be equally relevant as long as you don't move the sensor once the map has been formed.

Mike from FrankenCIS/DKubus was happy with this specific sensor in this location in the 56 page Pelican thread. I think this is why.

If we can come up with a non invasive way of tapping a sensor into the block which prevents swarf ingress into the oil system I would be very interested.

Would welcome views.

[carrpet]

Jonny, you had bet cover your eyes and ears up !!

Originally Posted by flightlead404  Hey Carrpet I have a successful 930 FrankenCIS with Lambda installation that is working very well. I recently dynoed at 365hp at the wheels, but that was with a 0.8bar WG spring. I've recently swapped that to a 1.0 bar spring as I had a little fuel left on the table. Not only is my boost pressure higher, but it feels like it comes on sooner and stronger. I'm thinking the 0.8 bar spring was cracking open earlier. I keep promising to do a full write up of the project with all the parts and details, but as of yet only have about 50% of that written up, but with everything I think I'm probably pushing 400hp at the wheels. My gut says there's maybe another few hp left with some more careful tuning esp ignition timing but I'm happy where I am for now. In addition to the FrankenCIS I also swapped to SC cams, lightweight clutch package, Tial WG with the above spring, RarlyL8 headers and Hooligan exhaust, TurboKraft long neck 1/2 bay intercooler, K27/29 hybrid turbo, and one of the biggest improvements I had my flywheel cut for a 60-2 tooth pattern and am using the microsquirt to control COP ignition as well. I feel the addition of ignition control in the same package makes a HUGE improvement. The only thing I'd do differently is use 30-1 instead of 60-2. If you aren't going to dig that deep into your power train (I had my tranny out because it needed a refresh and the clutch was worn) then you could lock off your dizzy and use that for a crank position pickup for ignition control. You don't need throttle position unless you want to do electronic boost control. That was my initial plan but I've decided that's unnecessary. Pity you spent the money on the rebuilt CDI unit as it is totally unnecessary if you can get crank position reliably off your flywheel or dizzy. If you do that, then you can ditch the CDI entirely, and if you use crank pick up remove the dizzy and block off the hole. When you do that, then you can also remove all the vacuum lines, thermo time sensors, Pierburg switches and have a very clean installation. I did purchase and install the Turbokraft CHT sensor, but I forgot to calibrate before install. However I'd also installed a Denso CLT sensor in the breather cover where the old thermo valve was and it gets oil splash and works just fine for controlling warm up. I did no fuel head work at all. Pretty sure you could open up the fuel head and lines and use a larger lambda valve and get even more fuel and therefore raise boost, and then get more power. After that I'd consider porting heads. If you're pulling heads to port them you might as well up your displacement and static compression. If you're going to do that.......well, you can see where that leads  AEM would work fine. Pretty sure the fuel pressure would be fine as well, but the one I used was a cheapy off ebay. I have a boss on the exit of my intercooler for IAT and used the open element GM one. I T'd off one of the throttle body ports for the 3Bar GM Map sensor. I use two, one is doing constant barometric adjustment one is MAP. PS I grew up in Leamington Spa, Warks and lived in Market Harborough nr Leicester in the late 90's. Silverstone was a regular place to visit with my Dad. I remember watching James Hunt win there in the March in 1975.

Hi @flightleed404

Thanks for your answer, there's a lot to take in.

I live within 20 miles of Leicester near Grantham. I have been to Silverstone a couple of times too. Which part of the States are you in ??
I saw the picture of your car ! Very nice !

So one step at a time

For the moment lets just concentrate on fuel then we can cover the spark bit later if thats OK ! I had my engine/gearbox out 6 months ago so I missed the boat for flywheel related timing I guess!

I have no lambda sensor as my car is UK spec with no catalytic converter.

IAT
I have a FabSpeed long neck intercooler and from what I remember there is a tapped plug in the outlet neck of that I am sure is designed to take an IAT sensor. What IAT sensor did you use ?
MAP
Do you have any photos of your sensor installations especially the MAP sensor on the throttle body that you mention ? What MAP sensor did you use and is the barometric sensor the same ?
CHT
Where does the turboKraft CHT install. Is it near the oil pump for the Turbocharger ?
Do I need to calibrate the CHT sensor against 0C and 100C in MS before I install it ?
Does the same pre-calibration apply to the Denso CLT sensor ?
The most popular installation for CHT seems to be the VW sensor tapped into the crankcase above the camshaft timing chain cover without therefore any oil contact. Any views on this ?
Fuel Pressure Damper
Are you using one and is it the Toyota damper that FrankenCIS recommend. I am assuming you have the #2 DWUR block

That's probably enough for one go !

Thanks

Peter

Edited November 9, 2020 by carrpet

[Ian Comerford]

Ok, happy!  Just tell me when you want it fitting.

[Phill]

This is where I put my temperature sensor.

[PorscheApostle]

6 hours ago, carrpet said:

Courtesy of Kenikh on Pelican

Temperature sensor part and location

Drilling and tapping required (this is an Ian Comerford area of expertise !!!!!)

https://www.heritagepartscentre.com/uk/311906041a-temp-sensor-for-cylinder-head-fi-us.html

Think the idea is to get stable engine temp that don't fluctuate which is difficult with an air-cooled engine. Porsche put a cylinder head temp sensor (NCT) in cylinder no. 3 on 3.2 Carreras and 964s 993 for the Motronic EFI. No.3 being the cylinder that runs hottest. It appears in your image the temp sensor is in the cam housing (drilled and tapped I assume) above no. 4 cylinder head Arguably the coolest running cylinder. Provided the temperatures are consistent and you have a baseline to map off I can't see the issue but for safety as with what Porsche decided run the temp sensor where it's likely to run hottest that way you can run richer certainly on a turbo. 

D

[PorscheApostle]

On an aside I'm building another 930 at the minute so will look for options for you. I know it's pretty snug behind the throttle body and it's probably unlikely there would be sufficient room but I have a couple TPS from a few ITB engines on the stands so will have a look if it's possible. 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CHYAdOBlvhS/?igshid=1sx66727xc8ax

DBS 

[carrpet]

15 hours ago, Phill said:

This is where I put my temperature sensor.

Thanks Phill

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/1077720-porsche-930-frankencis-installation.html

More 930 specific installation details from flightlead404.

 

[carrpet]

Response from Mike Polljonker from Dkubus

 

IAT location

 

Personally I think the best location for the intake temperature sensor is after the core of the intercooler and before the throttle plate. This way the temperature is as close as possible to what the engine will actually breathe. 

 

Map sensor location

 

Map sensor is quite a lot more flexible choice, but one thing is for sure it must be post throttle (after the throttle plate in the intake manifold) otherwise you'll never see vacuum at the sensor. 

 

If the sensor connects with a small hose (like a GM style sensor) then try to attach it to the "larger volume" area within the main plenum and not directly adjacent or within any one cylinders intake runner.  

 

Engine Temperature Sensor

 

If your standard temperature sensor is engine oil temp then I wouldn't normally recommend that as it responds too slowly to correctly and effectively tune too. 

 

Instead on air cooled engines (especially turbocharged) I recommend a cylinder head temperature sensor thermistor be added to the cylinder that normally runs hottest. This way you get fast transition for cold start and better safety margin if anything isn't correct with engine. 

 

This is a fairly normal modification for 930's and there will be some better than me that would know what cylinder is the "hot one" plus probably know a local company that can offer you the bolt on thermistor. 

 

Hopefully this is helpful. 

 

Cheers 

 

Mike Polljonker 

Edited November 11, 2020 by carrpet

[carrpet]

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-930-turbo-super-charging-forum/1077720-porsche-930-frankencis-installation.html#post11098681

More responses from flightlead404 on Pelican

[carrpet]

On 09/11/2020 at 20:01, PorscheApostle said:

Think the idea is to get stable engine temp that don't fluctuate which is difficult with an air-cooled engine. Porsche put a cylinder head temp sensor (NCT) in cylinder no. 3 on 3.2 Carreras and 964s 993 for the Motronic EFI. No.3 being the cylinder that runs hottest. It appears in your image the temp sensor is in the cam housing (drilled and tapped I assume) above no. 4 cylinder head Arguably the coolest running cylinder. Provided the temperatures are consistent and you have a baseline to map off I can't see the issue but for safety as with what Porsche decided run the temp sensor where it's likely to run hottest that way you can run richer certainly on a turbo. 

D

Hi D,

Great input. I have ordered the appropriate sensor its just a case of finding an optimal place to install it in #3 cylinder head

Peter

[Ian Comerford]

A little bird tells me you have received some new parts.....what’s the plan?

[carrpet]

On 14/11/2020 at 08:39, Ian Comerford said:

A little bird tells me you have received some new parts.....what’s the plan?

I have now ordered the DWUR and all of the sensors so will continue updating when the parts arrive and I will post photographs of each sensor installation !

I have also purchased MicroSquirt  and Tuner Studio / Data Base analysis package which has now arrived. I will install the MS module behind the plastic cover next to my CDI+ module.
 

I have decided to go for the Cylinder Head temperature installation on No.3 CH based on the fact that this is generally regarded as the hottest CH and also Porsche use CH3 when CH temperature is required. The PET for my 930.66 has a CHT sensor for a 930.26 on CH3.  I am going to use the TurboKraft purpose designed CH sensor installation bracket and pocket. This will arrive on Friday. I will have to remove the exhaust to get good access for the installation. Fortunately this is new (installed March 2019) and has a combination of titanium and stainless steel studs, nuts and bolts, so should be very straight forward with existing gaskets. Photographs to follow.

IAT sensor - General Motors
MAP sensor - General Motors

Fuel Pressure Damper - Toyota

Edited November 17, 2020 by carrpet

[carrpet]

TurboKraft CHT sensor will be installed mechanically tomorrow. Exhaust has been removed ! Titanium studs and nuts do make the job nice and easy !

Edited November 22, 2020 by carrpet