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#F1-2021-Bent


GaryH

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And, worse. He said one thing, on which the teams based their pitting decisions....and then afterwards, changed his decision at the last minute when it was too late for the teams to do anything about it.

Pure incompetence.

Edited by GaryH
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"Unless clerk of the course considers the presence of the safety car is still necessary, once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap."

(Not immediately after they've passed the leader).

So that process wasn't followed either !

 

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I haven’t watched F1 for years but got drawn into the excitement pre race so watched my first race for as long as I can remember yesterday. 
 

All I can say is it will be a long time before I watch another one. It was farcical. How can it be sport if they change the rules mid race? 
 

And as for Max v Lewis being “the greatest rivalry the sport has ever known”. What are they talking about? 

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8 hours ago, Wingnonut said:

How can it be sport if they change the rules mid race? 
 

Regardless of opinions on Max vs Lewis, or comparison of race directors etc. this is what it boils down to - the rules weren't followed and that can't be debated. I can't quite wrap my head around the thought process.

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32 minutes ago, ciaraglynn said:

Regardless of opinions on Max vs Lewis, or comparison of race directors etc. this is what it boils down to - the rules weren't followed and that cant be debated. I can't quite wrap my head around the thought process.

Spot on and totally agree. As far as thought process is concerned was there actually any or just knee jerk reaction to outside pressure.....

Bottom line for me is that I feel Lewis on this occasion was robbed and Max drove an outstanding season but while he is now World Champion is title will always be devalued because of this and in some way they are both loosing out. 

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Finally got to watch the footage from yesterday’s big event. Totally agree with all the comments about Max Vs Lewis , the referee took way too much time to call that one 😂

https://www.facebook.com/HockeyFightsUK/videos/294291978788715

 

Edited by fxm911
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OK, I've not seen the race as I was working yesterday, I have only read Andrew Benson's piece on the BBC website. I will also declare that I would have preferred Lewis to have won.

It appears to me that the problem lies with the sporting regulations themselves, and not Masi's interpretation of them.  Yes one section of the rules state that lapped cars can be permitted to overtake and unlap themselves, however I don't think that rule actually states that all lapped cars must unlap themselves before the safety car period ends. Thus we end up with the potential for contradiction and confusion. As with all the rules in F1, both technical and sporting, they have  grown like topsy and need simplifying.

For example, one could simplify the rules around the deployment of the safety car, as follows.

-  As soon as the safety car is deployed, the pit lane is closed except for cars that have suffered some form of physical damage, including a punctured tyre.

- If a car enters the pit lane during a safety car period, it cannot leave the pitlane until the last car behind the safety car has passed the pitlane exit. 

- Make the rule on unlapping to explicitly state that all cars are to unlap themselves. Or, say no unlapping, and all cars to hold station until the safety car period ends. Both situations have unintended consequences, and someone will be unhappy at some point.

To Stephen's point though, regardless of your team/driver loyalties, enjoy this season for what it was; one of the most entertaining for many years. I don't think any of us would have forecast that the championship would have gone to the last race, after pre-season testing when the Red Bull was clearly the fastest car out there and it looked like Max was a slam dunk for the championship.

The other Nige.

 

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1 hour ago, njpcarrera32 said:

OK, I've not seen the race as I was working yesterday, I have only read Andrew Benson's piece on the BBC website. I will also declare that I would have preferred Lewis to have won.

It appears to me that the problem lies with the sporting regulations themselves, and not Masi's interpretation of them.  Yes one section of the rules state that lapped cars can be permitted to overtake and unlap themselves, however I don't think that rule actually states that all lapped cars must unlap themselves before the safety car period ends.

Au contrare Blackadder...

FGa1ht0X0AkV-Mc.jpeg

No "potential for contradiction and confusion" on that regulation for the last 30+ years of F1, unless you're Michael Massi it seems 🤔

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Sorry, I'm like a moth to a light with this thread and couldn't keep away....

Taking the full season into consideration the faster team won and the faster driver won, both champions are well deserved, it's how F1 should be

100% sure if Hamilton was Dutch and Verstappen was English there wouldn't be so much uproar on one incident in the last race after a season jammed packed full of good/bad luck and right/wrong decisions for both drivers and teams

All teams wanted the final race to finish with cars racing over the line and that's what the teams got!

Gary, to add fuel to your bent F1 fire , what are your thoughts on the conspiracy theory that Redbull deliberately under fueled Perez so he was underweight to help with blocking Hamilton after his pitstop but then pull him in for an early retirement so his car wasn't weighed. Nothing in the rules saying the car has to be fueled up for the full distance

Fact or Fiction?  

Edited by World Citizen
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Net result of this needs to be a change to the way races are directed. Direct lines between Masi and teams are great for telly, but rubbish for race direction. Can’t imagine Eduardo Freitas putting up with that guff.

I think Masi has signed his papers with last weekend’s efforts.

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8 hours ago, World Citizen said:

Gary, to add fuel to your bent F1 fire , what are your thoughts on the conspiracy theory that Redbull deliberately under fueled Perez so he was underweight to help with blocking Hamilton after his pitstop but then pull him in for an early retirement so his car wasn't weighed. Nothing in the rules saying the car has to be fueled up for the full distance

Fact or Fiction?  

If that is fact then good on Redbull for coming up with the tactic. Tactics within the rules are what wins the races (as opposed to tactics that include badgering the race director over the phone cos you don’t like something and want it changed).
 

The inconsistency in the decision making by Masi (no cars to overtake/some cars to overtake) in my mind was influenced by team principals pressure on the race director and the need for “good telly” rather than because a safety situation had changed. 
 

That flip flopping was what made it farcical and ruined the race not because one driver won over the other (and I have no alligence to either man) but because it destroyed any decision on tactics teams had made up to to point of the flip flop. 

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Just now, Wingnonut said:

The inconsistency in the decision making by Masi (no cars to overtake/some cars to overtake) in my mind was influenced by team principals pressure on the race director and the need for “good telly” rather than because a safety situation had changed. 
 

That flip flopping was what made it farcical and ruined the race not because one driver won over the other (and I have no alligence to either man) but because it destroyed any decision on tactics teams had made up to to point of the flip flop. 

^^This. I don't mind Max, I cannot stand Horner. But then I am not a fan of Lewis either. I do however think Max and Lewis are great drivers. The problem here is that Max's victory will always be hollow because of this controversy. He can celebrate and so he should, but in time he will not be happy either. Because interviewers and social media commentary will always be nagging at him, you only won because of Masi, and that won't go until he wins his next title.

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11 hours ago, World Citizen said:

Gary, to add fuel to your bent F1 fire , what are your thoughts on the conspiracy theory that Redbull deliberately under fueled Perez so he was underweight to help with blocking Hamilton after his pitstop but then pull him in for an early retirement so his car wasn't weighed. Nothing in the rules saying the car has to be fueled up for the full distance

Fact or Fiction?  

Hadn't heard that one. Certainly possible but not what we're discussing.

Sporting Regulations were not followed.

Who benefitted is irrelevant. This s**t is just wrong :smash:

2 hours ago, Wingnonut said:

If that is fact then good on Redbull for coming up with the tactic. Tactics within the rules are what wins the races (as opposed to tactics that include badgering the race director over the phone cos you don’t like something and want it changed).
 

The inconsistency in the decision making by Masi (no cars to overtake/some cars to overtake) in my mind was influenced by team principals pressure on the race director and the need for “good telly” rather than because a safety situation had changed. 
 

That flip flopping was what made it farcical and ruined the race not because one driver won over the other (and I have no alligence to either man) but because it destroyed any decision on tactics teams had made up to to point of the flip flop. 

This ^^^^^^^^ 👍

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I haven't followed this race or F1 (much) for that matter but found this article rather balanced and explained things pretty good from both sides of the coin, in particular the decision making process masi had to go through (on a time budget) in order to achieve a racing finish. I think it's a case of damned if he did and damned if he didn't.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2021/dec/13/fia-indecision-brings-a-confusing-end-for-f1-fans-who-deserve-better?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

 

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17 minutes ago, Mondrian said:

I haven't followed this race or F1 (much) for that matter but found this article rather balanced and explained things pretty good from both sides of the coin, in particular the decision making process masi had to go through (on a time budget) in order to achieve a racing finish. I think it's a case of damned if he did and damned if he didn't.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2021/dec/13/fia-indecision-brings-a-confusing-end-for-f1-fans-who-deserve-better?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

 

"It is hard not to imagine that with the new Netflix generation of F1 fans it was deemed unacceptable to have the championship decided behind the safety car."

Right there ^^^^^ :(

I thought at the time that this was perhaps the clearest indication of how indefensible the decision was ...

"To the Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff’s in-race complaints Masi issued a dismissive rebuttal with an almost hysterical air. “It’s called a motor race, Toto,” he said as this one-lap motor race duly played out."

...sadly, not the way you ran it mate.

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3 hours ago, GaryH said:

Hadn't heard that one. Certainly possible but not what we're discussing.

Sporting Regulations were not followed.

Who benefitted is irrelevant. This s**t is just wrong :smash:

This ^^^^^^^^ 👍

As said before one poor decision doesn't win/lose a championship

You're very good at criticising from your arm chair but spare a thought for Messi, he had Liberty, FIA, race organsier etc leaning on him, 20 unhappy whining F1 team Principles and Sporting Directors shouting at him while he tries to keep up with action of a grid full of cars on track while at the same time he's trying his best to make sure the race in run safely and to the rules

Both drivers/teams over the year have complained publicly about FIA bias on various decisions but I think if you were to analyse every single incident through the whole season, any wrong doings from wrong decisions either way will probably balance out between the teams and drivers

Does that make F1 bent, I don't think so!

Best thing the FIA can do is give Messi extra support, pick him up, dust him off, protect him, to enable him to grow stronger/more confident so he can stamp on teams when they get a bit too full of themselves ie Wolff and Horner. Also not broadcasting any radio messages from the pit wall to himself will stop teams hamming it up for the public.

Worst thing the FIA can do is sack Messi as the next person in his seat won't have as much experience which will only make the situation worse. Best analogy I can think of is it would like getting rid of Boris and replacing him with Kier Starmer

 

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, World Citizen said:

Best analogy I can think of is it would like getting rid of Boris and replacing him with Kier Starmer

Best bit of reading in the whole thread!! 🤣🤣 Fair play Stephen. 👍🏻

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Can't say I agree with this - if a Race Director simply bends to suit the person who shouts loudest then they shouldn't be doing the job. If the pressure is on then they should fall back to the letter of the rules surely?

I assume the 'Messi' is a typo rather than a reflection of his actions?

As to the Boris analogy I recall one from the 1970 World cup quarter finals - Gordon Banks' shirt on a hanger would have been better than Peter Bonetti!!

 

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2 hours ago, World Citizen said:

Best analogy I can think of is it would like getting rid of Boris and replacing him with Kier Starmer

Ha ha - you're making the opposite point there !

Win/win in both your examples :lol:

Place yer bets on which of those two is out first ;)

Edited by GaryH
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4 hours ago, World Citizen said:

As said before one poor decision doesn't win/lose a championship

It did though didn't it, on this occasion.

4 hours ago, World Citizen said:

but spare a thought for Messi, he had Liberty, FIA, race organsier etc leaning on him, 20 unhappy whining F1 team Principles and Sporting Directors shouting at him while he tries to keep up with action of a grid full of cars on track while at the same time he's trying his best to make sure the race in run safely and to the rules

He gets paid a lot of money to make fast time decisions based on the rules. He has got worse and worse as the season progressed.

4 hours ago, World Citizen said:

Both drivers/teams over the year have complained publicly about FIA bias on various decisions but I think if you were to analyse every single incident through the whole season, any wrong doings from wrong decisions either way will probably balance out between the teams and drivers

We shouldn't confuse decisions made by the stewards with those made by the race director.

4 hours ago, World Citizen said:

Best thing the FIA can do is give Messi extra support, pick him up, dust him off, protect him

I disagree, he has had his chance and clearly can't deal with the pressure.

4 hours ago, World Citizen said:

Also not broadcasting any radio messages from the pit wall to himself will stop teams hamming it up for the public.

Agree. There should be no hot line to the race director or the stewards.

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I can't help but feel sorry for MM. He is in an impossible position and its just not as simple as making a decision based on the rules because he has the ability to exercise his judgement and in some cases the rules are not necessarily black and white and can be open to interpretation. This was no different for Charlie Whiting (god rest his soul) who also occasionally made a decision that not everyone agreed with. Whether or not you think MM is right for the role, the race director needs way more support and the whole process is ripe for changing. Personally I don't think MM is right for the role but not because of Sunday's decision around the safety car. I just don't think he sounds credible or authoritative enough - something that should be a critical attribute when facing off against team principles with strong personalities.

Having said that, I for one thoroughly enjoyed the spectacle, intrigue, last lap battling and will enjoy the back and forth of this ongoing saga during the quite months between now and next season. ;)

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2 hours ago, Lesworth said:

I can't help but feel sorry for MM. He is in an impossible position and its just not as simple as making a decision based on the rules because he has the ability to exercise his judgement and in some cases the rules are not necessarily black and white and can be open to interpretation.

But the safety car rules are clearly stated in the Sporting Regulations Les.

So how come no other race director in the past has ever come up with the same (mis) interpretation of the unlapping safety car rule as Massi ? 🤷‍♂️

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