New shocks

[Northy]

Whilst up in Wales I was watching a few of the other cars over the bumps and I'm sure mine was bouncing around a bit more than most of them (it felt like that anyway), which has started to make me think the shocks are on their way out. I have Koni adjustables on mine and set them onto their hardest a while ago. However, I did notice during my break rebuild that I could compress them fairly easily by hand, so perhaps they are just worn out - I have no idea of the mileage on them but it must be over 15K - 20K.

 

So my question is are Bilstein Sports the shock to have or are there better alternatives without getting into the silly money. I am in the states early next year, so will probably get them from over their and bring them back as luggage to try and save on some duty.

[Chris_911]

Bilsteins Sports for me - I came away from Wales (and a 'spirited' A-road drive home) deeply impressed with the composure of my car.

 

I renewed the dampers about 10k miles ago. I have been thinking about Tuthills damper offering but, for a road car like mine and given the way I felt the car performed in Wales, I think I would be wasting my money. Certainly better off spending the cash on driver tuition.

[Peter Bull]

The shock is more a matter of taste than absolute truth. The cheapest way might be to refurbish the shocks you have, and get them revalved for your use.

 

/Peter

[GaryH]

Mine were described by 9M as 3.2 Carrera Clubsport Bilsteins when they fitted them. Seem to suit my SC very well. Very well composed during the 'testing' sections of the Wales run. Definately on the firm side but I also have the 26mm rear torsion bars so that contributes as well. Have a ride in my car at Silverstone mate and see what you think.

[djf67]

Gary, I was going to ask what you had because when following me you seemed to have less bother than me in some of the trickier fast corners, particularly the corner where I produced my little cloud but you followed at the same pace without incident. Nigel's Limey looked really hunkered down on the fast stuff but he reported a lot of botoming out on the bumpy stuff. Swings, roundabouts, etc....

Gary, how was the ride on the rougher stuff?

[bruceb]

Bilstein sport come in few flavours, there are the original porsche option "sport equipment " billys that are in fact just run of the mill dampers. The after market bilstein "sport" shocks are a lot firmer than these. Let me know if you need the part numbers

 

With standard torsion bars either will be fine but the firmer "sport" shocks will control the roll a lot more and require less agressive suspension set ups for best use.

 

To give an idea my very very firm rally spec (tuthill) bilsteins on softish t bars need very mild suspension settings to keep the tyres working propely.

 

Tutts will do my rally set up for about the same price as buying sport spec units from after market places, USA source excepted.

[GaryH]

Gary, I was going to ask what you had because when following me you seemed to have less bother than me in some of the trickier fast corners, particularly the corner where I produced my little cloud but you followed at the same pace without incident. Nigel's Limey looked really hunkered down on the fast stuff but he reported a lot of botoming out on the bumpy stuff. Swings, roundabouts, etc....

Gary, how was the ride on the rougher stuff?

On the very broken surfaces, the ride is a little 'jangly', steering wheel best held with the fingertips at speed, wouldn't suit everyone but I find it a good compromise for both road and track use. Makes up for it on the smoother surfaces with very low levels of body roll and the ability to get the power down early on the exit of corners. I think it's about as low as it can go without actually creating handling/clearance problems. I have 26mm turbo torsion bars at the rear and must admit I didn't bottom out once on Saturday She may not be much to look at but she handles well for an old girl.

 

Robin at 9M did the suspension work using their recommended 'fast road' setup, with Parr tweaking it a bit afterwards. When I first picked it up from 9M and drove the (considerable) way home to Brighton it felt like a different car. The phrase 'on rails' is perhaps overused but that's exactly how it felt. Understeer was greatly reduced with very 'neutral', predictable handling that inspires you to go just a little bit quicker each time.

 

ps I still ran a little wide on 'that' corner, just not quite as wide as you !

Edited November 11, 2007 by GaryH

[Northy]

Bruce, did they re-valve your existing struts, re-valve some reconditioned struts or new ones? Not that it matter I guess. What TB's do you run as well?

 

Gary I'll take you up on that at Silverstone mate, PAX'ing Tim and TC I could really feel how stable their cars were on track.

 

I am basically looking for a good fast road/track setup, starting with the shocks and then TB's later on - if necessary.

[bruceb]

Lewis, Tuts exchanged my front inserts for some new ones and I bought their spec valved rears outright no echange, it all worked out about the same price as buying new shocks from other places.

 

My t-bars are the same as Gary's just 26m turbo rear bars with std fronts.

 

From Garys description of how his car handles, mine seems very similar, slightly nervous handling, very little body roll, but it puts the power brilliantly on the fast corners, slow corners and chicaines are a bit chuck it and catch it as the shocks are too stiff to transfer the weigth quickly enough.

[GaryH]

My t-bars are the same as Gary's just 26m turbo rear bars with std fronts.

 

From Garys description of how his car handles, mine seems very similar, slightly nervous handling, very little body roll, but it puts the power brilliantly on the fast corners, slow corners and chicaines are a bit chuck it and catch it as the shocks are too stiff to transfer the weigth quickly enough.

Not really a surprise Bruce, I'd been lurking on IB for a little while when I had 9M setup my suspension and took a lot of cues from this guy on there called BruceB with a nice handling SC

[topcarrera]

Gary I'll take you up on that at Silverstone mate, PAX'ing Tim and TC I could really feel how stable their cars were on track.

I recommend just doing shocks along with a good geometry set up as a first step. I had firm Bilstein Sport shocks (as Bruce points out - not to be confused with the items fitted as standard to UK sport spec cars) fitted to mine before any tbar or arb upgrades. These along with lowering and a 9M set-up transformed the car. The car worked so much better on the track and was still very bearable on all but the most broken surfaces.

 

As the track bug bit I wanted a bit more control and decided to ditch the standard pre 86 20/18 arbs and replace with adjustable Smart Racing items and change the standard 19/24 tbar combo for a 22/29 set up. The car feels no more uncomfortable in normal road driving but is much sharper on the track. However, the car is now a lot more "edgy" than it was with just the firmer dampers; not too much of a problem but needs care in the wet and on bumpy narrow roads!

 

Yesterday's drive was a good illustration. On much of the route the car felt superb, particularly the faster less bumpy drier sections (will make another ET run soon) but on a few of the tighter bumpy wet sections the car was a bl**dy "handful" and would certainly have been safer and easier to drive swiftly with its previous standard set-up. My little excursion yesterday (100% lack of brain on my part) happened in a snap - too much gas, stiff suspension and LSD getting to terms with bumpy wet narrow road = twitch = front wheel in ditch = car heading for oblivion - VERY VERY LUCKY to get car back on the road unscathed. My first (and hopefully last) incident on road or track after 9+ years and 30K miles in this car.

 

In conclusion - Get some firm Bilsteins fitted, have full geometry set-up and see how the car performs. Before you read some of the Pelicanites advice on tbar sizes - i.e. that you really need at least 23/32 believe you me 22/29 is enough! My current set-up is great but if you do a lot of spirited country B-road driving then 26mm tbars on the rear (particularly on a light car) is about as far as you want to go.

[johndglynn]

if you do a lot of spirited country B-road driving then 26mm tbars on the rear (particularly on a light car) is about as far as you want to go.

 

I have 19/26 bars on mine and they are perfect. Have a slightly bigger rear ARB to go on, looking forward to seeing how different that will be.

 

My dampers are Koni adjustables - not played with them yet but need to do some setup work at some stage, no idea what it's set to (track/camber et al) at the mo.

[GaryH]

As the track bug bit I wanted a bit more control and decided to ditch the standard pre 86 20/18 arbs and replace with adjustable Smart Racing items

FYI Lewis, I'm running 22mm front arbs, 21mm rear.

[Northy]

Cheers guys. I have already got late model Carrera ARB's, so I think the first step is some firmer/newer shocks, get used to that setup first and then move onto TB's. So it sounds like either this Tuthills Rally Spec or Bilstein Sports are the way to go then.

 

One thing I wanted to know, what's the benefit of the through the body ARB's like Smart Racing over the standard under body ARB's?

[jevvy]

One thing I wanted to know, what's the benefit of the through the body ARB's like Smart Racing over the standard under body ARB's?

 

I loved my billy sports when I fitted them - through body ARB's are typically adjustable to you get some fine tuning.

[bruceb]

As Jevvy said through body does give adjustment on the front.

 

However to fine tune the handling an adjustable rear is much more usefull with the small torrsion bars, your late model carrera front is plenty stiff enough IMO, going larger on the front will just add understeer.

 

Its the rear that needs the larger bar to dial out the understeer and control the roll, the SMART one is very nice, I have one in combo with the large carrera front

[AirCooledExcellence]

I would go with Billy Sports all the way around, if you go for larger TB's later on these will work well with them (well mine seem to). Bruce is spot on with the ARB advice, keep it soft at the front hard at the rear!

[jevvy]

keep it soft at the front hard at the rear!

 

Got to be the quote of the year!

[Northy]

LMAO!

[GaryH]

Got to be the quote of the year!

Someone do him a T-shirt with that on for the Xmas do.

[hot66]

interestingly, Chuck @ Elephant racing has advised me to go for 21/27 combo with Bilstein HD's. Car has stock 'S' roll bars, ER polybronze bushes & I'm raising the suspension to 25.5 fr , 25 rear.

 

Mike bainbridge, tuthills & others it appears recomend 19/26 combo

 

Any comments etc ? I don;t want the car oversteery to the point it becomes a liability if I'm not concentrating

[Chris_911]

If it was me I'd go with the recommendation of a UK-based specialist - more familiar with the demands of UK roads.

Edited November 21, 2007 by Chris_911

[GaryH]

If it was me I'd go with the recommendation of a UK-based specialist - more familiar with the demands of UK roads.

+1, their roads are much smoother than ours, hence why a lot of Pelicans go pretty mad with their stiff set ups. No so good on our sh*tty, unmaintained roads ! Ask TC about Welsh roads and stiff torsion bars

[Nige]

the regular roads over there aren't that much better than ours, I'd say worse in some instances

Edited November 21, 2007 by Nige

[Richard Bernau]

interestingly, Chuck @ Elephant racing has advised me to go for 21/27 combo with Bilstein HD's. Car has stock 'S' roll bars, ER polybronze bushes & I'm raising the suspension to 25.5 fr , 25 rear.

 

Mike bainbridge, tuthills & others it appears recomend 19/26 combo

 

Any comments etc ? I don;t want the car oversteery to the point it becomes a liability if I'm not concentrating

 

19/26 leaves the front std and saves you money.

19/26 will move the balance a little rearward - ie., less understeer

21/27 is close to std balance and will certainly reduce some body roll

21/27 primarily the front will feel stiffer not the rear

 

I think your choice is different to what most everyone else is discussing here as you have a narrow body car with presumably no more than 205 rear tyres. On a fast road 3.2, I reckon 19/26 or 20/27 would be nice, while 22/29 or bigger verges on track whore. On a little S, I would keep the fronts std and probably keep the rears std as well. I think a rear 19mm ARB plus Billies would be fine for fast road. I have raced a 2.4E, track and tarmac rally, set up just so with Konis rather than Billies and it was perfect. If you run symmetric front and rear tyre sizes then I am not sure that bigger rear torsions are necessary for the road.

 

RB