does anyone know this cs?

[craig winter]

hi guys,

first of all i'd like to say hello to all the members out there. i've long been a fan of the impact bumper cars & last year i viewed the "evo" 164k mile car. although i didn't buy it i've long since thought i should have. i currently drive a 993 c4 in speed yellow with genuine rs body parts from new. it's a stunning car & such a capable pan europen gt but recently i've been thinking of getting something a little more track freindly, & my thoughts have turned to a carrera cs again.

 

i'm sure this car is well known to most of you as it seems to be a tight social unit between the cs owners (something i'd like to join!) & with it previously being a ace car i'm sure it has an interesting history to go with it!

 

i know there are probably more pristine cars ot there but i really don't feel comfortable with a track car being worth too much & something in the £15-25k price range is ideal, neatly putting most mint clubsports out of my price range.

 

the 993 i'm runing at the moment is absolutly pristine with good history & although my budget may put the most pristine examples out of reach a car with an interesting history might not put me off as long as there is plenty of evidence there to support its maintenance.

 

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2590749.htm

 

 

 

many thanks in advance guys,

craig

[Richard Bernau]

 

I wouldn't get a CS if I wanted something track friendly. Everything you do to make a CS more track friendly makes it worth less. I would find that frustrating in the extreme.

 

Starting from scratch, I think the Supersport is the best platform to start from then you do suspension, light bumpers and seats and 3.6. I don't think you can do that for £20k but less than £25k certainly. Maltons would try to charge you £30k for that spec car. IMHO, a car like that is not worth £30k but it is worth £20k+ so its not a complete money pit either. This would also be a lot more fun on track than a CS and would run around at very close to early GT3 pace if well driven. Develop and lighten it properly and you have a proper quick track car if you decide to go down that route. Remember, a CS is no quicker than a std 3.2 - despite what CS owners may want to believe. They don't make any more power as shown on many dyno days and the weight saving is about the same as a set of light seats or you can do it yourself with some simple weight loss/strip out sound deadening effort. As nice as a CS is, its not a track day car and it has unfortunately become a pretty thing to sit around and polish because of its rarity - IMHO.

 

Although its not a very IB-centric view, you may also consider putting KWV3s and light seats in your 993 and call it basically done. Its reversible if you really care and gets you 90% of a 993RS for <50% of the budget. Add the RS rear suspension links and you really are close to the real thing.

[craig winter]

Thanks for the reply Richard!

 

I totally understand where you're coming from, but an out & out fastest car on track isn't what I'm really after.

My thinking with this car in particular is as long as I don't write it off it's pretty much not going to lose too much money (given it's history it's unlikely to gain much either) but it should always be worth what I pay for it-if it's in as nice a condition as it looks.

 

I have to admit that owning a CS does appeal as well! As for my car, I find the 993 market either wants a full on rs rep or a mint stock car-I fear ny car would be stuck inbetween the two!

Craig

[MrPerkles]

Craig the best person to ask about a CS for track use is Alpole on here his made 255bhp and he gave it death on track

if it was me i would buy a modded IB or somethng cheap and stick a 3.6 in the back with sticky tyres etc and not worry about the abuse its going to get

Jevvys is a perfect example of a 3.6 track missile, have a browse of the hotrod section and track chat forums

[Nige]

There is some kudos to owning a CS granted but even as mild track day weapon I'd be looking at the options the guys have already put forward. Even without going 3.6 you'll get as much out fun of a partially lightened 3.2 anyway whilst saving a bundle for more trackdays and tyres, etc.

[Al_W]

Hi Craig,

 

welcome aboard.

I pointed the black SC 3.6 out to you over on PH, and it's also advertised on here. This should link to the ad.

I can see the appeal of a genuine Porsche 'halo' model, CS, RS etc but agree with RB and MrP that any mods (or damage) you do may impact its future value. I started with a cheap SC which I can gradually develop as a project. I'm sure it would be cheaper to buy one someone else has already done, but the journey is half the fun for me plus it lets me pay for it as i go along.

Have you found out the spec/condition of that CS as it's former track life and restoration could mean it's got most of the mods you'd want already, or could mean its about as original as Trigger's broom. It sounds pretty cheap for a CS

[craig winter]

hmmm, good advice from all corners, though i'm somewhat more surprised that people are stearing me out of a CS, but that's exactly why i signed up-to gain some good advice!

 

my idea behind buying a car that has already had a lot of work done is pure & simple to save time & money. it's highly unlikely that any of us would ever find a car that is 100% exactly what we want & i don't mind buying something that needs that last 10% doing to it that would make it my ideal car.

 

the main points are that is structurally & mechanically sound with the bulk of the track mods already done, that way any tidying up & fettling can be done as & when time & money allow.

 

evidence of solid engine & chassis work would be a must, a cage (half pref), lightweight seats etc. & a tidy body would be the major plus points. with something like the car linked i'd actually imagine with the full cage it's a little bit ott for me (for that statement read the missus!) but on those long trips into europe although i wouldn't miss aircon (my 993 doesn't have it) & i could fit a stereo, carpet set if needed etc to make it habitable.

 

i have to point out that as well as on here i have a thread going on pistonheads as i'm not exclusively looking at an ib car, there's also the choice of going down the 964 route.

 

 

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.a...%2E%2E%2E%2E%2E

Edited March 11, 2011 by craig winter

[MrPerkles]

hmmm, good advice from all corners, though i'm somewhat more surprised that people are stearing me out of a CS, but that's exactly why i signed up-to gain some good advice!

 

my idea behind buying a car that has already had a lot of work done is pure & simple to save time & money. it's highly unlikely that any of us would ever find a car that is 100% exactly what we want & i don't mind buying something that needs that last 10% doing to it that would make it my ideal car.

 

the main points are that is structurally & mechanically sound with the bulk of the track mods already done, that way any tidying up & fettling can be done as & when time & money allow.

 

evidence of solid engine & chassis work would be a must, a cage (half pref), lightweight seats etc. & a tidy body would be the major plus points. with something like the car linked i'd actually imagine with the full cage it's a little bit ott for me (for that statement read the missus!) but on those long trips into europe although i wouldn't miss aircon (my 993 doesn't have it) & i could fit a stereo, carpet set if needed etc to make it habitable.

 

i have to point out that as well as on here i have a thread going on pistonheads as i'm not exclusively looking at an ib car, there's also the choice of going down the 964 route.

 

 

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.a...%2E%2E%2E%2E%2E

one thing that should be really pointed out if you go the IB route is that most of them have rot in the structural areas and it should be your first point of concern when looking at one

[Al_W]

I can very much see the appeal of a CS but as above, the value is tied to originality so you're more limited in modification potential. Having said that there's no reason why a 993 engine transplant isn't reversible as far as I know...

 

I'd suggest you try to pin down your likely balance between track and touring use, as this is likely to steer your decision into the best compromise for you. I can imagine the reaction I'd get at home if I suggested a Euro tour in a race car....

 

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

[asm993]

Hi Craig

I'm the owner of the black car that Al pointed out. Obviously I'm bound to say this, but it does sound to me that it isnt far off what you describe. The cage is bolt in and so you can for starters take the side bars out in 5 minutes. I also think you could take out the front half to just leave the rear bit (personally i dont really understand rear cages as surely you're just supporting the bit of the car that you're not sitting in if it turns over).It does have carpet so is fairly civilised. Three weekends ago I drove with a mate (skstc on here) down to Abbeville in France for a trackday- 4am start, eurotunnel, hammer round all day (giving two Gt3s a run for their money- plus I guarantee that I had more fun than them as I didnt see them sideways all day!), we stopped off at the wine society warehouse on the way home to load up with a case of wine and back to London for 9pm on the same day. The car didnt miss a beat and is perfect for that sort of day out or longer. I would feel perfectly comfortable doing that every weekend in the car if I could.We took it down to classic LeMans last year again without any issue. Both sides sills and b posts have been done, as has lhe inner wing. Gearbox rebuilt and new clutch a couple hundred miles ago,top end rebuilt just over 2 years ago,etc. I am selling as I have found another IB project that I would like to buy that would give me two rear seats for my 2 small children. I've spent over 10k (this doesnt include the engine conversion) on this car with the right specialists over the last 12months to get it sorted out.

 

As others have said, always start with any older porsche by looking for structural rust.

Cheers

Will

p.s. Just on the off chance, your current 993C4 isnt registered RxxxPBM is it? If it was I was the second owner of that car and it was wonderful.

Edited March 12, 2011 by asm993

[craig winter]

Lol yes I'm driving your old car!

In fact I wrote to you & all the previous owners (though at your old address probably) just on the off chance that anyone still lived in the same place & had any old photos/storys/paperwork of the car-it's got a large history file but I'm something of a completist!

I bought the car off a fellow pcgb member after getting a tip off that it was coming up for sale, it's still in amazing condition though now just gone past 78000 miles. Since buying it i've done a full suspension refurb, transmision rebuild & tidied up some of the paint work. It's down to the fact that it's still in such good nick that I'm reluctant to strip it out & get back into the trackday scene.

 

As for your car I'm not ruling anything out yet, the advert does make it clear it's had all the right work done, it's just I've always hankered after a clubsport hence this thread. Your sc does sound like a phenominal track car however!

[asm993]

Hi Craig

We moved about 6 months after I sold it but your letter was not forwarded. I'll certainly see if I have any other bits and pieces for it. I owned it from Nov11 2005 to Oct 2006. Bought from GT Classics for the same money at the time as 964RSs that were on sale there.....hmmm...

Do let me know if there's anything else I can help with on that car. It was probably the nicest 993 i'v e ever seen. It was absolutely solid. Thinking about it I was actually the third owner, the one before was Dulan and I sold it to a very nice chap called Drew - surprised he ever sold it! I'm bound to have loads of pics somewhere- i'll drop you a PM about it

A CS would certainly be a very nice car to get your hands on.

Best

WIll

[alpole]

Hi Craig,

I use to own a CS and only sold it last year having modified it pretty much the same way I think you want to go down. It was great to drive on the track and I agree with all the guys comments on here about buying a cheaper car to do all the track mods you want to achieve. HOWEVER I know this CS and I think you will find its pretty much ready in the spec you would want without any more thrown at it so it is extremely good value.

I think it will be worth £25k minimum whenever you sell it and CHris Sargeant at GCR motorsport in Leicester has looked after this car for a long time (as he did mine)

Sure this car has had a tough time on the track but its had the money spent on it and I would definately go and have a look as buying it would be safer than keeping the money in the bank.

 

Cheers

 

Alan

[clubsporting]

One other important point is that whilst originality is important in something like a CS the fact that it is a CS will always make it have a premium value. If you look at the value of a 2.7 RS now you will not find a car for less than 150K whatever the condition, this is simply because although any Porsche can be "replicated" the chassis number is in fact the real value. Many so called original 2.7RS are complete rebuilds with many raced heavily in the 70s and now with new engine, panels, interior etc . For sure the 25,000 mile car with one owner and the original paint and tool kit will always be worth more but any rs is worth a lot more than the standard model at the time irrespective of the history. BTW I am not saying that a CS is worth the same as a 2.7 RS or ever will be but it is a similar case....and only time will tell how much they do become worth. I wish I had bought a 2.7RS in ANY condition 10 years ago :-)

 

Personally if you wish to track day a car I would buy one of the cars mentioned here that has already been set up to do trackdays or an ex race car. An immaculate car that sits in the garage and does 1000 miles per year along some country lanes is going to suddenly be under huge stress on the track and might cost you a small fortune once those mechanical parts start to get stressed (clutch, gearbox, brakes etc. - you could spend far more than the value of a standard 3.2). An ex race car might have some dents BUT it is likely to have been maintained far better than a road car and any weakness should have been removed. Plus there is nothing to stop you putting some trim back in a race car and getting a few panels tidied up. Futhermore a 3.2 that has raced in the Carrera Cup will still be relatively standard, there are very few modifications to the cars allowed in this series and so whilst they look like all out race cars it is really only the interior trim that is removed. The weight is strictly controlled and so cars are unlikely to have glass removed or panels lightened.

[johndglynn]

I pointed the black SC 3.6 out to you over on PH, and it's also advertised on here. This should link to the ad.

That car is well and truly sold now AFAIK but the owner started Porsche life in a 993 C4S, Speed Yellow with RS kit fitted at the factory...

 

Small world!

 

I think it will be worth £25k minimum whenever you sell it and CHris Sargeant at GCR motorsport in Leicester has looked after this car for a long time (as he did mine)

This advice is on the money, value would be closer to £30K for insurance.

[asm993]

That car is well and truly sold now AFAIK but the owner started Porsche life in a 993 C4S, Speed Yellow with RS kit fitted at the factory...

 

Small world!

 

 

This advice is on the money, value would be closer to £30K for insurance.

 

Hi

JG - that sy 993 was in fact my old one! My black car is indeed now sold. I've also just been told that the CS sold last week....

[johndglynn]

JG - that sy 993 was in fact my old one! My black car is indeed now sold. I've also just been told that the CS sold last week....

Ha! Small small world, always amazes me.

[craig winter]

yes the CS did sell, in fact, true to my luck with these things it sold over the phone an hour before i rang up for it (this was the day after i took the deposite on my sy 993-i don't believe in making offers on cars until you know for certain you have the funds to buy them!)

 

so onwards & upwards, the search continues......

[Fulla]

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.a...E2+Clubsport%2E

 

Craig one for you?

[SP72]

and another?

http://www.oakfields.com/html/showroom01De...2&dlr=10001

 

Don't know what that heater duct achieves?