3.8-litre engine transplant options

[Phill]

1 hour ago, Busybee said:

Options old man. They be aplenty 

Not really, are they? You have two cars and two engines. FWIW I think the 3.8 should go in Daisy since the rest of the car is already there to support it. I'm with Mark, the 912 doesn't need the 3.2 from Daisy, it needs a nice 3.0 screamer to complement the lightweight and nimble nature it would certainly have. Sell the 3.2 to fund a nice 3.0 build with ITBs, EFI, cams and a 7500 red line. That would be awesome and I think you would then Daisy altogether. Axel's 912 is the benchmark to aim for I think.

[sopor]

59 minutes ago, Busybee said:

 Wonder if it'll be worthwhile financially too.

Almost certainly not.

I think there's load of empirical data that hot-rods without "pedigree" do not return their investment upon their sale. Even some with "pedigree" struggle. Build the 912 hot rod because you want to own it and drive it and keep it - not because you want to make money from it. Otherwise sell it as-is as a project.

As always, free advice is worth at least double what you've paid for it.

[Phill]

33 minutes ago, sopor said:

 

As always, free advice is worth at least double what you've paid for it.

Felix, don't under sell yourself. I charge at least triple for my free advice   

[Busybee]

1 hour ago, MarkJ said:

you would spoil the weight dynamics of a narrow body with a big lump in it. I'd stick to a snarly revving 3.0 on carbs (or maybe the 3.2) but not 3.8. Agree that the 3.8 could work nicely in the Red Baron though

3.2 on throttle bodies with trumpets 👌 Is there really any weight differential to speak of between a 3.0 and a 3.2? Wouldn't a 3.2 on throttle bodies be pretty zingy anyway?

Yup, think the bigger motor will find its spiritual home in the red car. 

[sopor]

2 minutes ago, Phill said:

Felix, don't under sell yourself. I charge at least triple for my free advice   

I sense a bidding war coming on...

[Busybee]

38 minutes ago, sopor said:

Almost certainly not.

I think there's load of empirical data that hot-rods without "pedigree" do not return their investment upon their sale. Even some with "pedigree" struggle. Build the 912 hot rod because you want to own it and drive it and keep it - not because you want to make money from it. Otherwise sell it as-is as a project.

As always, free advice is worth at least double what you've paid for it.

Maybe, maybe not. I think I might get my money back on it if I don't go crazy on the spend. The R at Boxengasse was just beautiful. That look for my 912 would just be sublime I have the shell, have the motor. If I budget wisely on mods to engine and overall I might be OK. But of course, not for gain. I just wanna do it! 

[World Citizen]

46 minutes ago, Phill said:

Felix, don't under sell yourself. I charge at least triple for my free advice   

People pay me not to tell them what I know

[sopor]

46 minutes ago, Busybee said:

Maybe, maybe not. I think I might get my money back on it if I don't go crazy on the spend. The R at Boxengasse was just beautiful. That look for my 912 would just be sublime I have the shell, have the motor. If I budget wisely on mods to engine and overall I might be OK.

If you're going to pay someone to do all the work I suspect you won't get your money back. In terms of hot-rod value the whole is inevitably less valuable than the sum of its parts. Ask @axel and perhaps @Richard Bernau with his trackmeister build

46 minutes ago, Busybee said:

I just wanna do it! 

Then JFDI. Stop spending so much time on here prevaricating and gassing and get doing; you'll be 62 soon enough yourself!! 😀

Edited August 25, 2020 by sopor

[Busybee]

3 minutes ago, World Citizen said:

People pay me not to tell them what I know

I’d pay to read your F1 stories Stephen. Write a book! 

2 minutes ago, sopor said:

If you're going to pay someone to do all the work I suspect you won't get your money back. In terms of hot-rod value the whole is inevitably less valuable than the sum of its parts. Ask @axel

Then JFDI. Stop spending so much time on here prevaricating and gassing and get doing; you'll be 62 soon enough yourself!! 😀

@axel, is he right? Think our Norwegian friend did well out of the blue car. 
Hey, plenty of years left till I’m 62 buddy 😜👨‍🦳 Gotta have a hobby. Stirring the pot on here is quite fun. And listen to the dad of your car will ya! 😂

[Richard Bernau]

2 hours ago, sopor said:

...and perhaps @Richard Bernau with his trackmeister build

 

I have largely come out even on all the Porsches I have owned if I ignore maintenance spend.  While I have spent on specialists where warranted, I have done a lot myself and I have shopped very hard when it comes to buying parts and creating things like say a braking system rather than buying off the shelf solutions.  I have also used resources well away from the expensive South East where possible.  Even the Trackmeister was not a horrible investment because I bought very, very well.

Compared to depreciation on a new car (any new car), I am miles ahead.

But, but, but...

I think the days of making money out of a hot rod (or perhaps breaking even) are probably now gone.  Unless you can create a brand and grift your way into convincing a rich dumbass to part with way too much cash.  I am convinced I could create something like a Paul Stephens car for 75% of the price (or less), but not convinced I could sell it for 75% of the price - if that makes sense.  But I am constantly surprised at what seems to sell for good money and what doesn't, so what do I know! 

[SilverWT]

4 hours ago, Busybee said:

3.2 on throttle bodies with trumpets 👌 

Is there really any weight differential to speak of between a 3.0 and a 3.2?

Negligible in the same configuration.

The same is true of a 3.6/3.8 if it is in the same configuration .

I have weighed a 3.6 to prove it was not significantly heavier than a 3.2. Details are in my old 3.6 conversion thread.

Mark

[Leicestershire]

4 hours ago, SilverWT said:

 

I have weighed a 3.6 to prove it was not significantly heavier than a 3.2. Details are in my old 3.6 conversion thread.

Mark

Depending on how the conversation is done, they often sit further towards the rear of the car.

[SilverWT]

9 hours ago, Leicestershire said:

Depending on how the conversation is done, they often sit further towards the rear of the car.

I'm talking about engine weight alone, out of car.

The length of the crankcase is the same for all the engines, if the gbox is not moved/changed the engines sit in the same place in the car. If the 3.6 engine mount is used some of it protrudes about 25mm further back, but is not heavy enough to make any difference. If a 964 derived engine retains it's harmonic balancing lower pulley that protrudes about further 10mm back, but again, not significant.

Mark

[Jonny Hart]

^ a few mm of engine location would pale compared to the 6kg of AC compressor that typically hangs off the back of a 964/993 engine in its original home.  
 

If you’ve removed that then would have thought it would more than compensate.  

[Busybee]

Existing engine in daisy has already been lowered a bit I believe to allow for the 964 intake. The 3.8 has the harmonic damper pulley. It’s a straight swap so as long as weight isn’t significantly different, there shouldn’t be any discernible difference in balance or dynamics - just a huge difference in fat torque and scary shove! Gettin! 🙈🙊
 

Yeah, no AC Jonny 

Edited August 26, 2020 by Busybee

[Beaky]

I'd go slightly a different way, yes 3.8 into Daisy, it has the widebody, brakes, etc. etc. to handle and put down the power - this is your rag it toy!

The 912 I'd go as standard as possible perhaps with a little bit more power - it’s a thing of beauty to admire and cruise around effortlessly.

Now you have the best of worlds, the beauty and the beast 😉

[Busybee]

I get that Xris but this was never destined as a pristine original 912. It’s an E so less collectible, has an 80hp engine (bore me to tears so will never get used) and isn’t stock in the engine department (efi removed and Webber's installed). Don’t think it’s the matching numbers motor either. 
Be so much cooler with lightweight bumpers and bonnet. An R rep. Especially with a 270hp screaming 3.2 out back 👌

Edited August 26, 2020 by Busybee

[WP0ZZZ]

18 hours ago, Richard Bernau said:

I am convinced I could create something like a Paul Stephens car for 75% of the price (or less), but not convinced I could sell it for 75% of the price - if that makes sense. 

Makes total sense. Paul Stephens has a structure and a marketing machine that adds market value to a car.

[SilverWT]

18 hours ago, SilverWT said:

I have weighed a 3.6 to prove it was not significantly heavier than a 3.2. Details are in my old 3.6 conversion thread.

Sorry, remembered wrong thread. Here it is -

And here - 

Mark

 

[Busybee]

You know its getting serious when you get fibreglass tinware made up. Thanks for picking them up @jevvy. T minus 10....